Catilina
The Beastmaster
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Post by Catilina on Jun 2, 2017 23:51:55 GMT
He doesn't have a chance to try to kill Warden or Loghain. But yes, he doesn't want to kill Warden. But even betrays the order for personal revenge. Even if I think, this is only a sudden wrath. Zevran needs only a few reputation to stay with Warden. And because he doesn't trust Warden, then he will follow his old lover. I don't think, Fenris wants to kill Hawke, only follow his own path. Hawke doesn't care about him. Anders feels betrayed in friendship, if Hawke supports the Templars at the end. And he's right: Hawke betrays him in this case. As far as I remember, Zevran swears he won't try to kill you again as long as you are a better employer than Crows, but yes, Warden should know better tha to trust an assassin. Fenris simply doesn't care unless you are far enough in friendship path with him so yeah, not really a betrayal. Anders however...he has no right to talk about betrayal. I'm a mage, he claims to be my friend, I help him against Templars quite a few times and then he screws everything up without giving me an opportunity to talk him out of it beforehand? You bet he gets executed...enjoy your martyrdom, idiotic abomination  Zevran only betray warden, if absolutely don't trust him/her. If Warden has 26+ approval Zevran will not turn against Warden. This is a very little chance, I think. Zevran's case is hard. He can be the most loyal companion and lover, but finally he must trust Warden. When the Warden spared his life, probably he expected some different than before, but he just felt alone. I think, he chose his old, familiar way, or, just was still suicide... he knows Warden's strength. This is his reason, I suppose. Anders doesn't talk about betrayal, but I think, he feels betrayed, not just he personally, but the mages (and he doesn't understand, why Hawke supports the Templars – he understand, if Hawke wants to kill him, but doesn't understand, if Hawke turn against the mages). He naturally follows his cause. And he didn't talk about his plan? Probably I'm weird, but I can understand him, despite, that of course, I would like better, if he would tell his plan. But he has many reasons for kept it vaguely (he talk about that this will be bloody). |
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
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Posts: 827
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Post by Catilina on Jun 2, 2017 23:57:44 GMT
As far as I remember, Zevran swears he won't try to kill you again as long as you are a better employer than Crows, but yes, Warden should know better tha to trust an assassin. Fenris simply doesn't care unless you are far enough in friendship path with him so yeah, not really a betrayal. Anders however...he has no right to talk about betrayal. I'm a mage, he claims to be my friend, I help him against Templars quite a few times and then he screws everything up without giving me an opportunity to talk him out of it beforehand? You bet he gets executed...enjoy your martyrdom, idiotic abomination Yeah, considering that, even on a friend path where you have supported him every step of the way, even if in a romance, he still refuses to tell you the truth about why he wants your help with the funky ingredients. If you question him about it, he guilt trips you, and essentially makes it a litmus test of your friendship and/or love. To me it seems like there is a complete lack of trust there. I suppose the response to that will be that Hawke is also showing lack of trust, but I don't agree. Anders blatantly lies, and uses as the guise something he knows Hawke will want to help with: separating him from Justice. He's father betrayed his trust. The Wardens betrayed his trust. In the Circle, he didn't trust anyone except Karl. Karl died. I can understand him. His plan is important he can't jeopardize. And he doesn't want Hawke blame him/herself because of his act. He prepared to die. I found the Justice quest weird/illogical in love relationship: my Hawke doesn't want to help him in this dangerous experiment. He tried convince him, that he and Justice is fine, doesn't worth risking their life for it. |
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
Wanted Apostate
Posts: 827
Likes: 3,282
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 0:00:20 GMT
I choose to interpret it as Anders trying to give me a nice surprise.  Riiiiight, because blowing up churches and setting off wars are such a nice surprises What's the problem with the war? I don't understand. The peaceful solution didn't exist. |
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Post by Vallerie on Jun 3, 2017 0:22:07 GMT
Riiiiight, because blowing up churches and setting off wars are such a nice surprises What's the problem with the war? I don't understand. The peaceful solution didn't exist. I'm not saying there was a peaceful solution. Problem was, he sparked it in the worst possible way, connected to Hawke, endagering the very people he claims he cares about. Mages were already feared by common folk and opressed by Templars. This attack just further deteriorated public opinion of mages and gave Templars excuse to further escalate measures in Circles, which resulted in vote on independence which lead to Seekers and Templars saying screw you Chantry, we are going after mages. He pretty much screwed over current generation of mages vecause of his vad experiences, endagered Hawke and her merry band of rogues because it led to chaos in the streets and Hawke can't resist a good fight... I'm not saying he is evil, I'm saying he is stupid. |
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Post by Vallerie on Jun 3, 2017 0:24:05 GMT
War is bad however, no matter the cause. Which is why you generaly don't start them.
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
Wanted Apostate
Posts: 827
Likes: 3,282
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 0:42:21 GMT
What's the problem with the war? I don't understand. The peaceful solution didn't exist. Problem was, he sparked it in the worst possible way, connected to Hawke, endagering the very people he claims he cares about. Mages were already feared by common folk and opressed by Templars. This attack just further deteriorated public opinion of mages and gave Templars excuse to further escalate measures in Circles, which resulted in vote on independence which lead to Seekers and Templars saying screw you Chantry, we are going after mages. He pretty much screwed over current generation of mages vecause of his vad experiences, endagered Hawke and her merry band of rogues because it led to chaos in the streets and Hawke can't resist a good fight... I'm not saying he is evil, I'm saying he is stupid. War is bad however, no matter the cause. Which is why you generaly don't start them.1. (bolded) So: War can be necessary if there's not a peaceful solution just your hand must stay clean? Yes! Exactly this thinking was one of Anders reasons, why he kept his plan in secret/vaguely. (Never blame yourself! – means: your hand still clean.) 2. "We're already doomed" – Anders to Orsino... And Bethany said: that a new world incoming, the people must learn to live together with the mages. Someone must start the change. This was not stupid: he reached his goal: the rebellion started. (Vivienne said that the mages were fashionable accessories to the orlesian nobles, before Anders blew up the Chantry. She called this "innocent times"... I think, she proved with this sentence, that Anders was right.) |
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Post by Vallerie on Jun 3, 2017 1:05:00 GMT
I'm not saying there was a peaceful solution. Problem was, he sparked it in the worst possible way, connected to Hawke, endagering the very people he claims he cares about. Mages were already feared by common folk and opressed by Templars. This attack just further deteriorated public opinion of mages and gave Templars excuse to further escalate measures in Circles, which resulted in vote on independence which lead to Seekers and Templars saying screw you Chantry, we are going after mages. He pretty much screwed over current generation of mages vecause of his vad experiences, endagered Hawke and her merry band of rogues because it led to chaos in the streets and Hawke can't resist a good fight... I'm not saying he is evil, I'm saying he is stupid. War is bad however, no matter the cause. Which is why you generaly don't start them.1. (bolded) So: War can be necessary if there's not a peaceful solution just your hand must stay clean? Yes! Exactly this thinking was Anders' one reason, why he kept his plan in secret/vaguely. 2. "We're already doomed" – Anders to Orsino... And Bethany said: that a new world incoming, the people must learn to live together with the mages. Someone must start the change. This was not stupid: he reached his goal: the rebellion started. (Vivienne said that the mages were fashionable accessories to the orlesian nobles, before Anders blew up the Chantry. She called this "innocent times"... I think, she proved with this sentence, that Anders was right.) I did not say that it was neccessary. I did say that there was no peaceful solution and I should have added "obvious" to that sentence, because Divine Justinia was trying to reach at least some kind of solution. But ultimately, problem wasn't that he actually sparked a war (which is still bad), problem was who he was and how he did it. Because he was a mage, because he blew up a chantry and because your average inhabitant of Thedas is Andrastian, he villanized mages, making anyone but other mages unlikely to side with him. He made them seem like power hungry villains who don't care about anything but their own freedom and power. And sure, he did reach his goal...on top of a pile of thousand corpses and screwing over the group which he claimed he did it for. And the very person you used to show he was right also points out how his attack led to mages being as feared as they were during Tevinter Imperium days...which is not a good thing while you are trying to earn your freedom (alliances over might, being feared is not a great way to secure permanent alliances). |
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 1:28:33 GMT
1. (bolded) So: War can be necessary if there's not a peaceful solution just your hand must stay clean? Yes! Exactly this thinking was Anders' one reason, why he kept his plan in secret/vaguely. 2. "We're already doomed" – Anders to Orsino... And Bethany said: that a new world incoming, the people must learn to live together with the mages. Someone must start the change. This was not stupid: he reached his goal: the rebellion started. (Vivienne said that the mages were fashionable accessories to the orlesian nobles, before Anders blew up the Chantry. She called this "innocent times"... I think, she proved with this sentence, that Anders was right.) I did not say that it was neccessary. I did say that there was no peaceful solution and I should have added "obvious" to that sentence, because Divine Justinia was trying to reach at least some kind of solution. But ultimately, problem wasn't that he actually sparked a war (which is still bad), problem was who he was and how he did it. Because he was a mage, because he blew up a chantry and because your average inhabitant of Thedas is Andrastian, he villanized mages, making anyone but other mages unlikely to side with him. He made them seem like power hungry villains who don't care about anything but their own freedom and power. And sure, he did reach his goal...on top of a pile of thousand corpses and screwing over the group which he claimed he did it for. And the very person you used to show he was right also points out how his attack led to mages being as feared as they were during Tevinter Imperium days...which is not a good thing while you are trying to earn your freedom (alliances over might, being feared is not a great way to secure permanent alliances). What should he do? A Facebook campaign? A peaceful demonstration? (Funny, yes, but he already tried: manifestos.) The mages were feared already thanks to the Chantry. "We're already doomed" – he was right: no one trusted the mages, the war did not change this significantly. Justinia belated. Sad thing, but it happens sometimes. He gave a chance to mages for fighting for the freedom. Fiona did a mistake. This is not his fault. A sweeping victory would be nice, but even he didn't expect that ( "Ten years, a hundred years from now..."), but anyway: the point is: the world will never be the same, as before. The hope, that the freedom is achievable, remain, whatever happens. |
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Post by Vallerie on Jun 3, 2017 2:06:45 GMT
I did not say that it was neccessary. I did say that there was no peaceful solution and I should have added "obvious" to that sentence, because Divine Justinia was trying to reach at least some kind of solution. But ultimately, problem wasn't that he actually sparked a war (which is still bad), problem was who he was and how he did it. Because he was a mage, because he blew up a chantry and because your average inhabitant of Thedas is Andrastian, he villanized mages, making anyone but other mages unlikely to side with him. He made them seem like power hungry villains who don't care about anything but their own freedom and power. And sure, he did reach his goal...on top of a pile of thousand corpses and screwing over the group which he claimed he did it for. And the very person you used to show he was right also points out how his attack led to mages being as feared as they were during Tevinter Imperium days...which is not a good thing while you are trying to earn your freedom (alliances over might, being feared is not a great way to secure permanent alliances). What should he do? A Facebook campaign? A peaceful demonstration? (Funny, yes, but he already tried: manifestos.) The mages were feared already thanks to the Chantry. "We're already doomed" – he was right: no one trusted the mages, the war did not change this significantly. Justinia belated. Sad thing, but it happens sometimes. He gave a chance to mages for fighting for the freedom. Fiona did a mistake. This is not his fault. A sweeping victory would be nice, but even he didn't expect that ( "Ten years, a hundred years from now..."), but anyway: the point is: the world will never be the same, as before. The hope, that the freedom is achievable, remain, whatever happens. Let's just say I agree with his reasons, but his methods seem pointless and stupid. He might have pushed a change in the world, but he used a bulldozer where a scalpel was needed. And what should he had done? Help others, gather goodwill, maybe try what Viviene has done (get in a place of power). If he really believes the change will come 10, maybe 100 years from now, does it really have to be 10 or 100 years of warfare and spite? One...kind of good...effect his attack eventually had, and even then it was more of a fault of Coryphispit, was that Chantry's power base crumbled and if I had that choice I wouldn't have let it renew but that doesn't matter, does it. |
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
Wanted Apostate
Posts: 827
Likes: 3,282
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 2:32:01 GMT
What should he do? A Facebook campaign? A peaceful demonstration? (Funny, yes, but he already tried: manifestos.) The mages were feared already thanks to the Chantry. "We're already doomed" – he was right: no one trusted the mages, the war did not change this significantly. Justinia belated. Sad thing, but it happens sometimes. He gave a chance to mages for fighting for the freedom. Fiona did a mistake. This is not his fault. A sweeping victory would be nice, but even he didn't expect that ( "Ten years, a hundred years from now..."), but anyway: the point is: the world will never be the same, as before. The hope, that the freedom is achievable, remain, whatever happens. Let's just say I agree with his reasons, but his methods seem pointless and stupid. He might have pushed a change in the world, but he used a bulldozer where a scalpel was needed. And what should he had done? Help others, gather goodwill, maybe try what Viviene has done (get in a place of power). If he really believes the change will come 10, maybe 100 years from now, does it really have to be 10 or 100 years of warfare and spite? One...kind of good...effect his attack eventually had, and even then it was more of a fault of Coryphispit, was that Chantry's power base crumbled and if I had that choice I wouldn't have let it renew but that doesn't matter, does it. Gather goodwill... hahaha! (Rival!Hawke's best argument! How I love it! Hawke's best joke...in the whole game! I'm almost sorry, that I never did it, and never will.) Anders' not a dirty politician as Vivienne, who has fancy "friends"! Anders just a nice abomination... 100 years warfare? I don't think, that he spoke about this. Rather about 100 years of changes: in war, in people's minds etc. But even if he spoke about 100 years warfare, I can't forget the 1000 years oppression... this was the sin, not that Anders did. Vivienne a very bad example. She gathered goodwill for herself. And Vivienne wants to close the mages, not to free them. Yes, she enjoyed, that the mages were "fashionable accessories", I can imagine, how Anders/Justice would like this... (at least I found it disgusting...) So: Vivienne to me simply a despicable. And if Vivienne gets the Sunburst Throne, she has an army, and she uses it, no doubt. I think, as Divine, she killed more people, than Anders (she's cruel), for why? For shepherd the Apostates back to the Circle. Vivienne's not a positive figure. If she as mage declare, that she can't imagine that the mages can live freely, she cant gather trust: she rather proves, that mages are dangerous, and never deserve freedom. She's the worst propaganda in the mages viewpoint. Yes, Solas' ball destroyed the Temple. But Fiona also voted for the war. |
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Post by Vallerie on Jun 3, 2017 10:21:17 GMT
Let's just say I agree with his reasons, but his methods seem pointless and stupid. He might have pushed a change in the world, but he used a bulldozer where a scalpel was needed. And what should he had done? Help others, gather goodwill, maybe try what Viviene has done (get in a place of power). If he really believes the change will come 10, maybe 100 years from now, does it really have to be 10 or 100 years of warfare and spite? One...kind of good...effect his attack eventually had, and even then it was more of a fault of Coryphispit, was that Chantry's power base crumbled and if I had that choice I wouldn't have let it renew but that doesn't matter, does it. Gather goodwill... hahaha! (Rival!Hawke's best argument! How I love it! Hawke's best joke...in the whole game! I'm almost sorry, that I never did it, and never will.) Anders' not a dirty politician as Vivienne, who has fancy "friends"! Anders just a nice abomination... 100 years warfare? I don't think, that he spoke about this. Rather about 100 years of changes: in war, in people's minds etc. But even if he spoke about 100 years warfare, I can't forget the 1000 years oppression... this was the sin, not that Anders did. Vivienne a very bad example. She gathered goodwill for herself. And Vivienne wants to close the mages, not to free them. Yes, she enjoyed, that the mages were "fashionable accessories", I can imagine, how Anders/Justice would like this... (at least I found it disgusting...) So: Vivienne to me simply a despicable. And if Vivienne gets the Sunburst Throne, she has an army, and she uses it, no doubt. I think, as Divine, she killed more people, than Anders (she's cruel), for why? For shepherd the Apostates back to the Circle. Vivienne's not a positive figure. If she as mage declare, that she can't imagine that the mages can live freely, she cant gather trust: she rather proves, that mages are dangerous, and never deserve freedom. She's the worst propaganda in the mages viewpoint. Yes, Solas' ball destroyed the Temple. But Fiona also voted for the war. No, gathering goodwill is not a joke. It's as valid method as blowing up temples (if not more). Are you saying that current real world terror attack are justified? Because they have pretty similar reasons...they don't like the culture, so they are trying to change it by murdering innocents. Viv might be a horrible person (still not blowing churches up "for mages" bad ), but she is smart. I might not like politicians (authorities? f*** 'em!), but you don't have to be a horrible person to be one. By getting to place of more power, he would have methods available he simply doesn't have as a mage hiding out in Kirkwall's Darktown. And have you listened why does Viviene want to get mages back in Circles? She doesn't see Circles as a terrible prison, but a place of education. And she isn't completely wrong, even if I don't like Circles overall. You are usually allowed to leave a Circle, as long as you have a reason to and you're not suspected of being a maleficar. Not all that different to schools in our world (before you end your compulsory 10 years of school attendance). And while war might have been a direct result of Fiona's vote, the vote was forced by Templar's measures to make sure attack like one Anders did doesn't happen again. Nobody is really free of guilt in this situation, but the situation still doesn't justify blowing blowing church up and murdering thousands. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 3, 2017 10:55:29 GMT
Not every mage can become first enchanter of the Orlais circle, and even then, that position comes with no REAL authority. It doesn't even grant them the ability to defend themselves in the event of a Knight-Commander calling for the Rite of Annulment.
Vivienne's status as a mage grants her no significant political power. All her "authority" comes from being the consort of an Orlesian noble, who connected her to Celene.
Vivienne's situation is extremely unique, while Anders' situation is COMMON. And Vivienne could have easily wound up exactly like Anders, except a rich old lech took a fancy to her and abused the system to procure her special privileges.
Their situations are not comparable. How is Anders supposed to earn a position of authority? Turn himself into the Kirkwall Circle and just hope they don't murder him? Work for decades to become First Enchanter, with the threat of Annulment constantly hanging over his head?
You can't "work with" a system that denies you the right to live, and why should he? On what basis are we to assume it would even work? Civil Rights activism in the real world has always been fraught with violence.
The Chantry is already responsible for the slaughter of millions throughout history. Being blown up is the very least it deserves.
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
Wanted Apostate
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Likes: 3,282
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 11:03:10 GMT
Gather goodwill... hahaha! (Rival!Hawke's best argument! How I love it! Hawke's best joke...in the whole game! I'm almost sorry, that I never did it, and never will.) Anders' not a dirty politician as Vivienne, who has fancy "friends"! Anders just a nice abomination... 100 years warfare? I don't think, that he spoke about this. Rather about 100 years of changes: in war, in people's minds etc. But even if he spoke about 100 years warfare, I can't forget the 1000 years oppression... this was the sin, not that Anders did. Vivienne a very bad example. She gathered goodwill for herself. And Vivienne wants to close the mages, not to free them. Yes, she enjoyed, that the mages were "fashionable accessories", I can imagine, how Anders/Justice would like this... (at least I found it disgusting...) So: Vivienne to me simply a despicable. And if Vivienne gets the Sunburst Throne, she has an army, and she uses it, no doubt. I think, as Divine, she killed more people, than Anders (she's cruel), for why? For shepherd the Apostates back to the Circle. Vivienne's not a positive figure. If she as mage declare, that she can't imagine that the mages can live freely, she cant gather trust: she rather proves, that mages are dangerous, and never deserve freedom. She's the worst propaganda in the mages viewpoint. Yes, Solas' ball destroyed the Temple. But Fiona also voted for the war. No, gathering goodwill is not a joke. It's as valid method as blowing up temples (if not more). Are you saying that current real world terror attack are justified? Because they have pretty similar reasons...they don't like the culture, so they are trying to change it by murdering innocents. Viv might be a horrible person (still not blowing churches up "for mages" bad ), but she is smart. I might not like politicians (authorities? f*** 'em!), but you don't have to be a horrible person to be one. By getting to place of more power, he would have methods available he simply doesn't have as a mage hiding out in Kirkwall's Darktown. And have you listened why does Viviene want to get mages back in Circles? She doesn't see Circles as a terrible prison, but a place of education. And she isn't completely wrong, even if I don't like Circles overall. You are usually allowed to leave a Circle, as long as you have a reason to and you're not suspected of being a maleficar. Not all that different to schools in our world (before you end your compulsory 10 years of school attendance). And while war might have been a direct result of Fiona's vote, the vote was forced by Templar's measures to make sure attack like one Anders did doesn't happen again. Nobody is really free of guilt in this situation, but the situation still doesn't justify blowing blowing church up and murdering thousands. Yes, gather goodwill is a cynical joke, not a solution. 1000 years gathering goodwill was not enough. Vivienne's wrong. She wants to close mages. Perhaps, because people fear from mages, but still this is the worst propaganda: a mage who can't trust her fellows, justified, that they are untrustworthy monsters. With this opinion, she hurt them more than before, or more than Cassandra, because Cassandra's not a mage. Anders also sees, that Circles are good education centers, the best in fact (Anders–Bethany's banter in Act1). And sees these institutes as terrible prisons, and he's right. I did Mage Origin in DAO, I really can understand him. I never heard, that people who played as a casteless dwarf would consider caste system acceptable. The people, who played as city elf, usually doesn't say, that the alienages are good, and the just of primae noctis is something that not really pleasant, but must to accept, because this is part of the system (compare to the tranquilising and Templars' omnipotence). Compare Anders' attack against the Chantry to our modern world terrorism, is a nonsense. The circumstances are totally different, everything's different. But if you do not see it, it's unnecessary to talk about it. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 3, 2017 11:40:00 GMT
Hey, I just realised, Vivienne is the Milo Yiannopolous of mages:
Shielded from oppression by wealth and privilege. Spreading rhetoric that harms the community of which she is a part, claiming that it is "for their own good", when in reality it only serves to advance her own position.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 3, 2017 11:46:16 GMT
I don't know if I have a dog in this fight, but can anyone name a single instance in history where an oppressed group of people were handed their rights on a silver platter without any bloodshed? The mages were already villainized by the chantry. The whole idea of a circle to keep the muggle plebs safe from rabid mages is an instrument of oppression. I don't know if I would have gone about it exactly as Anders did, but I can understand his POV and his frustration. You can only oppress a group so far before they snap. The resulting bang is not just the perpetrator's fault. But of course a status quo power will point out the needless war you've started and innocents who've lost their lives. “For if you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves and then punish them.” -Moore, Utopia. The circles teach the mages that they're monsters, unfit for the world of good, pure men. And when they actually do something monstrous, everyone is appalled. Oh man, your quote is super sexy.  I tend to use a similar one from The Simpsons, lol. "You can't create a monster and then whine when it stomps on a few buildings!" |
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Post by Vallerie on Jun 3, 2017 12:16:25 GMT
No, gathering goodwill is not a joke. It's as valid method as blowing up temples (if not more). Are you saying that current real world terror attack are justified? Because they have pretty similar reasons...they don't like the culture, so they are trying to change it by murdering innocents. Viv might be a horrible person (still not blowing churches up "for mages" bad ), but she is smart. I might not like politicians (authorities? f*** 'em!), but you don't have to be a horrible person to be one. By getting to place of more power, he would have methods available he simply doesn't have as a mage hiding out in Kirkwall's Darktown. And have you listened why does Viviene want to get mages back in Circles? She doesn't see Circles as a terrible prison, but a place of education. And she isn't completely wrong, even if I don't like Circles overall. You are usually allowed to leave a Circle, as long as you have a reason to and you're not suspected of being a maleficar. Not all that different to schools in our world (before you end your compulsory 10 years of school attendance). And while war might have been a direct result of Fiona's vote, the vote was forced by Templar's measures to make sure attack like one Anders did doesn't happen again. Nobody is really free of guilt in this situation, but the situation still doesn't justify blowing blowing church up and murdering thousands. Yes, gather goodwill is a cynical joke, not a solution. 1000 years gathering goodwill was not enough. Vivienne's wrong. She wants to close mages. Perhaps, because people fear from mages, but still this is the worst propaganda: a mage who can't trust her fellows, justified, that they are untrustworthy monsters. With this opinion, she hurt them more than before, or more than Cassandra, because Cassandra's not a mage. Anders also sees, that Circles are good education centers, the best in fact (Anders–Bethany's banter in Act1). And sees these institutes as terrible prisons, and he's right. I did Mage Origin in DAO, I really can understand him. I never heard, that people who played as a casteless dwarf would consider caste system acceptable. The people, who played as city elf, usually doesn't say, that the alienages are good, and the just of primae noctis is something that not really pleasant, but must to accept, because this is part of the system (compare to the tranquilising and Templars' omnipotence). Compare Anders' attack against the Chantry to our modern world terrorism, is a nonsense. The circumstances are totally different, everything's different. But if you do not see it, it's unnecessary to talk about it. DAO circle can be terrible prison, if you play it that way. It can also be a wondrous place of higher learning, where you're free to pursue your craft the way you wish without anyone hindering you. For some it indeed is a terrible prison (Anders, Jowan), but for others, it is home (Minaeve, Wynne). And no, I'm not saying Circles are good. I'm saying they are better than the alternative (war, witch hunts, angry mobs, riots). I didn't say Viviene is right. I said she is smart. Besides she isn't saying she doesn't trust her fellow mages, she is pointing out the obvious problem of them being outnumbered by common people and them trying to win their freedom at the worst possible moment. But yes, she worked only for herself. The issue is, we barely see average Circle during normal day. We only see that in Fereldan Circle, which is only a short section. However, we see no pointless abuse, most mages don't seem too inconvenienced and Jowan is proven to be blood mage at the end of the origin. He might not be evil, but he knew it was against the rules, and he knew the punishment for it. The punishment might not be justified, but it's not like anyone is hiding what the punishment is. And in the end the one who very nearly destroys the Circle is a mage, not a Templar. Also please, don't try to turn my arguments into Circles are needed and Chantry is right. I'm arguing that blowing up churches (or any other buildings for that matter) nor murdering innocents is never justified, no matter the reason. And you don't go villainizing the group you claim to help when said group is outnumbered 10 to 1 by everyone else and any special skills said group possesses are canceled out by the opposing group. Tell that to the survivors and families of those caught in the explosions, I wonder what would they think of it. "Oh yeah, mr. Anders, you killing our families is totally justified." At least blow up building full of Templars (which still wouldn't have been justified), that way at least he wouldn't have murdered common people who are majority of Thedas and probably wouldn't have completely ruined public opinion of mages. I also wonder whether you would argue for his position had he not been our companion and friend. Edit: Anyway, in the end it doesn't matter whether I agree with Anders or not. He did what he did and it had the effect it had. |
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Post by Vallerie on Jun 3, 2017 12:30:58 GMT
I don't know if I have a dog in this fight, but can anyone name a single instance in history where an oppressed group of people were handed their rights on a silver platter without any bloodshed? The mages were already villainized by the chantry. The whole idea of a circle to keep the muggle plebs safe from rabid mages is an instrument of oppression. I don't know if I would have gone about it exactly as Anders did, but I can understand his POV and his frustration. You can only oppress a group so far before they snap. The resulting bang is not just the perpetrator's fault. But of course a status quo power will point out the needless war you've started and innocents who've lost their lives. “For if you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves and then punish them.” -Moore, Utopia. The circles teach the mages that they're monsters, unfit for the world of good, pure men. And when they actually do something monstrous, everyone is appalled. Silver platter? None. No bloodshed? None. Can you however, name a single group of people that went around blowing up people with no stake in the fight that didn't have it blow right back in their face? However, as far as non-violent solutions go, Czechoslovkia got from under communist oppression by (mostly) peaceful protests. You know how could they do that? Because they waited for an opportune moment, instead of trying to fight in the moment the odds were stacked against them the most they were in centuries. And they did that precisely because they were insanely outnumbered by Soviets, much like mages vs Chantry supporters, and before that, they were building up alliances and support from outside. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 12:34:07 GMT
DAO circle can be terrible prison, if you play it that way. It can also be a wondrous place of higher learning, where you're free to pursue your craft the way you wish without anyone hindering you. For some it indeed is a terrible prison (Anders, Jowan), but for others, it is home (Minaeve, Wynne). And no, I'm not saying Circles are good. I'm saying they are better than the alternative (war, witch hunts, angry mobs, riots). ... The issue is, we barely see average Circle during normal day. We only see that in Fereldan Circle, which is only a short section. However, we see no pointless abuse, most mages don't seem too inconvenienced and Jowan is proven to be blood mage at the end of the origin. He might not be evil, but he knew it was against the rules, and he knew the punishment for it. The punishment might not be justified, but it's not like anyone is hiding what the punishment is. And in the end the one who very nearly destroys the Circle is a mage, not a Templar. The DAO Circle is known to be one of the more lenient ones. While certain things are left up to the individual Knight-Commander of a given Circle, others are not, like taking away mage babies. The harrowing is also not up to discretion, nor how it's carried out. The harrowing isn't actually needed to avoid corruption, as we see from Tevinter mages, or hedge mages like Morrigan, or Dalish mages. (Those evil Tevinter mages are evil of their own accord, not because they were possessed by demons.) We do have one instance in the DAO mage origin of mages speaking of how they think templars watch them while they bathe. Taking individual experiences (Anders vs Wynne) isn't really that useful when the entire system is what was broken. The reason "war, witch hunts, angry mobs, riots" are a possibility is because the Chantry has poisoned the general populace against mages. If the Circles were run as academies, and the Chantry didn't go off spouting their anti-mage propaganda, this wouldn't be much of an issue at all. |
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
Wanted Apostate
Posts: 827
Likes: 3,282
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 12:44:09 GMT
Yes, gather goodwill is a cynical joke, not a solution. 1000 years gathering goodwill was not enough. Vivienne's wrong. She wants to close mages. Perhaps, because people fear from mages, but still this is the worst propaganda: a mage who can't trust her fellows, justified, that they are untrustworthy monsters. With this opinion, she hurt them more than before, or more than Cassandra, because Cassandra's not a mage. Anders also sees, that Circles are good education centers, the best in fact (Anders–Bethany's banter in Act1). And sees these institutes as terrible prisons, and he's right. I did Mage Origin in DAO, I really can understand him. I never heard, that people who played as a casteless dwarf would consider caste system acceptable. The people, who played as city elf, usually doesn't say, that the alienages are good, and the just of primae noctis is something that not really pleasant, but must to accept, because this is part of the system (compare to the tranquilising and Templars' omnipotence). Compare Anders' attack against the Chantry to our modern world terrorism, is a nonsense. The circumstances are totally different, everything's different. But if you do not see it, it's unnecessary to talk about it. DAO circle can be terrible prison, if you play it that way. It can also be a wondrous place of higher learning, where you're free to pursue your craft the way you wish without anyone hindering you. For some it indeed is a terrible prison (Anders, Jowan), but for others, it is home (Minaeve, Wynne). And no, I'm not saying Circles are good. I'm saying they are better than the alternative (war, witch hunts, angry mobs, riots). I didn't say Viviene is right. I said she is smart. Besides she isn't saying she doesn't trust her fellow mages, she is pointing out the obvious problem of them being outnumbered by common people and them trying to win their freedom at the worst possible moment. But yes, she worked only for herself. The issue is, we barely see average Circle during normal day. We only see that in Fereldan Circle, which is only a short section. However, we see no pointless abuse, most mages don't seem too inconvenienced and Jowan is proven to be blood mage at the end of the origin. He might not be evil, but he knew it was against the rules, and he knew the punishment for it. The punishment might not be justified, but it's not like anyone is hiding what the punishment is. And in the end the one who very nearly destroys the Circle is a mage, not a Templar. Also please, don't try to turn my arguments into Circles are needed and Chantry is right. I'm arguing that blowing up churches (or any other buildings for that matter) nor murdering innocents is never justified, no matter the reason. And you don't go villainizing the group you claim to help when said group is outnumbered 10 to 1 by everyone else and any special skills said group possesses are canceled out by the opposing group. Tell that to the survivors and families of those caught in the explosions, I wonder what would they think of it. "Oh yeah, mr. Anders, you killing our families is totally justified." At least blow up building full of Templars (which still wouldn't have been justified), that way at least he wouldn't have murdered common people who are majority of Thedas and probably wouldn't have completely ruined public opinion of mages. I also wonder whether you would argue for his position had he not been our companion and friend. Edit: Anyway, in the end it doesn't matter whether I agree with Anders or not. He did what he did and it had the effect it had. 1. In a wrong system, the legality's not a value. 2. People with massive Stockholm syndrome can support their captors: Minaeve, Wynne, and also Vivienne... 3. Every war has innocent victims, this is inevitable. In fact, almost ALL victims are innocent. 4. The worst thinking to accept the captivity for the captives safety. This only supports the fear. |
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Post by Vallerie on Jun 3, 2017 12:46:33 GMT
DAO circle can be terrible prison, if you play it that way. It can also be a wondrous place of higher learning, where you're free to pursue your craft the way you wish without anyone hindering you. For some it indeed is a terrible prison (Anders, Jowan), but for others, it is home (Minaeve, Wynne). And no, I'm not saying Circles are good. I'm saying they are better than the alternative (war, witch hunts, angry mobs, riots). ... The issue is, we barely see average Circle during normal day. We only see that in Fereldan Circle, which is only a short section. However, we see no pointless abuse, most mages don't seem too inconvenienced and Jowan is proven to be blood mage at the end of the origin. He might not be evil, but he knew it was against the rules, and he knew the punishment for it. The punishment might not be justified, but it's not like anyone is hiding what the punishment is. And in the end the one who very nearly destroys the Circle is a mage, not a Templar. The DAO Circle is known to be one of the more lenient ones. While certain things are left up to the individual Knight-Commander of a given Circle, others are not, like taking away mage babies. The harrowing is also not up to discretion, nor how it's carried out. The harrowing isn't actually needed to avoid corruption, as we see from Tevinter mages, or hedge mages like Morrigan, or Dalish mages. (Those evil Tevinter mages are evil of their own accord, not because they were possessed by demons.) We do have one instance in the DAO mage origin of mages speaking of how they think templars watch them while they bathe. Taking individual experiences (Anders vs Wynne) isn't really that useful when the entire system is what was broken. The reason "war, witch hunts, angry mobs, riots" are a possibility is because the Chantry has poisoned the general populace against mages. If the Circles were run as academies, and the Chantry didn't go off spouting their anti-mage propaganda, this wouldn't me much of an issue at all. That the Chantry system is flawed is flawed, that is true enough. Religion does become flawed the moment they get involved in politics, because it stops following their ideals and starts trying to stay on top of the pile. And the methods in Circles were outdated and pointless. No, I'm not saying that Circles are a solution. Problem is, you just don't go sparking a war by blowing up distrusting and fearful common folk when you need support of that very common folk (or alternatively support of people in power who would protect you, but they didn't really have that either outside of Ferelden and later possibly Inquisition) to actually keep your freedom instead of being murdered for what you are. Building alliances + gathering support >>>>> blowing up people |
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