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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2017 14:14:52 GMT
I always interpreted Aveline and Isabela as really disliking (or even hating each other) early on. Or at the very least Aveline for sure hates Isabela. I never thought they were meant to be teasing each other in those early interactions. I see their relationship as gradually evolving from enmity to mutual respect and then friendship. Isabela takes Aveline's abuse with good humour, and responds wittily, while also making good arguments about sexuality and self-image that eventually win Aveline over. Not being a woman, maybe my interpretation is way off, but to me their dynamic reads as Isabela helping Aveline to unlearn her internalised misogyny and discover/accept herself as a sexual being. And in the process, they both let their guard down and you see their softer sides. There's a really nice banter in Act 3 (one of my favourites in the whole game), where Aveline is upset because Isabela didn't come to her dinner party, and Isabela basically responds by saying she doesn't feel like she fits in with Aveline's life. Sure, it sounds mean on the surface, but to me it sounds like Aveline is (in a joking way), affirming their friendship and telling Isabela that she is welcome in her home and around her future children (if any). I dunno, I think that's nice. But I also think Alistair and Morrigan totally want to bone each other, and almost nobody agrees with me.  Yeah that's how I read the situation, as well. I think I'm more sensitive than I should be, though, because in that banter, I would have preferred it to have Aveline say "we both know you're not a slattern" or something like that. It looses the humor, I get it, and it's not meant to be taken super seriously. But to me it still feels like Aveline is judging Isabela but has decided that she can be friends with a slut, not that she realizes that Isabela isn't a slut but a woman who is confident in her sexuality. It's a minor thing and I sound like the PC police, but to me it's the difference between saying women who have lots of sex (safely and responsibly) are sluts but I'm okay with that, and women who have lots of sex are normal. |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 19, 2017 16:04:38 GMT
I always interpreted Aveline and Isabela as really disliking (or even hating each other) early on. Or at the very least Aveline for sure hates Isabela. I never thought they were meant to be teasing each other in those early interactions. I see their relationship as gradually evolving from enmity to mutual respect and then friendship. Isabela takes Aveline's abuse with good humour, and responds wittily, while also making good arguments about sexuality and self-image that eventually win Aveline over. Not being a woman, maybe my interpretation is way off, but to me their dynamic reads as Isabela helping Aveline to unlearn her internalised misogyny and discover/accept herself as a sexual being. And in the process, they both let their guard down and you see their softer sides. There's a really nice banter in Act 3 (one of my favourites in the whole game), where Aveline is upset because Isabela didn't come to her dinner party, and Isabela basically responds by saying she doesn't feel like she fits in with Aveline's life. Sure, it sounds mean on the surface, but to me it sounds like Aveline is (in a joking way), affirming their friendship and telling Isabela that she is welcome in her home and around her future children (if any). I dunno, I think that's nice. But I also think Alistair and Morrigan totally want to bone each other, and almost nobody agrees with me. I could get into them in theory, but it suspended my disbelief that they'd be getting misogynist towards eachother in a world where women supposedly are treated the same as men. Think about it: Bioware would never have the exact same banters with two men. |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 19, 2017 16:09:24 GMT
You know, it just occurred to me that they'll probably either have as many LIs as DA:I or more, unless they decide to severely decrease the cast size.  On one hand, it's more likely we'll all get what we want in a LI. On the other hand, the less likely our LGBT faves will get the amount of content and attention and fleshing out they deserve. Hopefully, they'll pull through for us. Hopefully. I hope they go back to 6 LIs, with perhaps some light flirts as secondary options. Bio is always saying "more romances than ever before!" but that is usually a radical interpretation of the text. It will probably depend on the framework of DA4: will we be a smaller adventuring band again or will we be part of a large organization? You know, we all talk a lot about a hypothetical 2 straight/2 bi/2 gay system as if that's what they typically go for. The only time they ever did that system was during DA:I development until they changed their mind and added two new straight ones, giving us a 4 straight/2 bi/2 gay system. With that in mind, I don't there's really anything to "go back to." Hell, it could be different this time. Maybe certain people will get their way regarding how much LGBT content to put in. But I don't think there will be an equal amount of straight love interests to gay love interests. In any game where they've had gay love interests, not just bisexual and straight ones, the straight ones always outnumbered the list of gay ones. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2017 16:19:19 GMT
I hope they go back to 6 LIs, with perhaps some light flirts as secondary options. Bio is always saying "more romances than ever before!" but that is usually a radical interpretation of the text. It will probably depend on the framework of DA4: will we be a smaller adventuring band again or will we be part of a large organization? You know, we all talk a lot about a hypothetical 2 straight/2 bi/2 gay system as if that's what they typically go for. The only time they ever did that system was during DA:I development until they changed their mind and added two new straight ones, giving us a 4 straight/2 bi/2 gay system. With that in mind, I don't there's really anything to "go back to." Hell, it could be different this time. Maybe certain people will get their way regarding how much LGBT content to put in. But I don't think there will be an equal amount of straight love interests to gay love interests. In any game where they've had gay love interests, not just bisexual and straight ones, the straight ones always outnumbered the list of gay ones. That's true, I forget that the 2/2/2 is a hypothetical rather than the real. Maybe I'm thinking that Gaider or someone else said that is what he wants to do. And what would have happened in DAI until the extra time. You're right, if there is going to be a disparity in options it's never going to be that queer people get greater options than straight people. I wish Frostbyte would be mod friendly so we could at least add things in that we want. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 19, 2017 21:59:39 GMT
I always interpreted Aveline and Isabela as really disliking (or even hating each other) early on. Or at the very least Aveline for sure hates Isabela. I never thought they were meant to be teasing each other in those early interactions. I see their relationship as gradually evolving from enmity to mutual respect and then friendship. Isabela takes Aveline's abuse with good humour, and responds wittily, while also making good arguments about sexuality and self-image that eventually win Aveline over. Not being a woman, maybe my interpretation is way off, but to me their dynamic reads as Isabela helping Aveline to unlearn her internalised misogyny and discover/accept herself as a sexual being. And in the process, they both let their guard down and you see their softer sides. There's a really nice banter in Act 3 (one of my favourites in the whole game), where Aveline is upset because Isabela didn't come to her dinner party, and Isabela basically responds by saying she doesn't feel like she fits in with Aveline's life. Sure, it sounds mean on the surface, but to me it sounds like Aveline is (in a joking way), affirming their friendship and telling Isabela that she is welcome in her home and around her future children (if any). I dunno, I think that's nice. But I also think Alistair and Morrigan totally want to bone each other, and almost nobody agrees with me. I could get into them in theory, but it suspended my disbelief that they'd be getting misogynist towards eachother in a world where women supposedly are treated the same as men. Think about it: Bioware would never have the exact same banters with two men. Lol, they totally wouldn't. You are 100% correct. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 10:29:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 12:56:52 GMT
Interesting article and good news for DA4. I was excited and then I came across this and reined in my excitement. I am worried that this is going to be the standard response to MEA's criticism. "We give the gays content but then they still criticize us!" I'm hopefully reading too much into this statement, but I didn't like how he used LGBT content as the example of how Bioware has to be careful in catering to fans. No, dude, we're pissed because MEA offered us objectively less than other people got AND less than we received in a previous title. It's regardless of other game developers, it's purely looking at how Bioware has treated their LGBT fans in queer baiting and passive aggressive tweets. We aren't asking Bioware to do more than most developers, we're asking for them to do the same level as their own previous games! Edit: of course, perhaps Bio has learned the lesson to take their LGBT fans seriously even if we're not a majority. I would sadly take them being nervous of our disapproval if they aren't going to seek or care for our approval. If they learn the wrong lesson but the outcome still improves...fine. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 13:38:42 GMT
@vbibbi , yes I caught that as well; it was an eye-roll moment for me. As I mentioned in that BSN romance thread post, having characters of LGB sexuality doesn't affect the game of players who don't care for that content. The mere presence of it is going to be bothersome to some people. That is sadly just a given. Bioware, ALL of their teams, just needs to decide whether those types of people are worth listening to. It seems clear to me that there is a right side to be on here, and Bioware, or the MEA team at least, has shown that they're not willing to cross the line and BE on that side.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 13:44:07 GMT
@vbibbi , yes I caught that as well; it was an eye-roll moment for me. As I mentioned in that BSN romance thread post, having characters of LGB sexuality doesn't affect the game of players who don't care for that content. The mere presence of it is going to be bothersome to some people. That is sadly just a given. Bioware, ALL of their teams, just needs to decide whether those types of people are worth listening to. It seems clear to me that there is a right side to be on here, and Bioware, or the MEA team at least, has shown that they're not willing to cross the line and BE on that side. Does Fallen London have LGBT content? I've only ever played a couple minutes of it. I wonder why he specifically mentioned LGBT content, unless it was in context of MEA's weak reception. And I don't believe outside of LGBT circles that has been brought up as one of the prime criticisms of MEA. I'm really hoping it was an innocent remark with unconsciously unfortunate implications. I am still resentful, though, that I feel relegated to the role of discontent gay who takes any comment about his minority group as an attack. He could have referenced many other things in terms of Bioware finding a balance between fan interests but chose this. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 14:38:28 GMT
@vbibbi , yes I caught that as well; it was an eye-roll moment for me. As I mentioned in that BSN romance thread post, having characters of LGB sexuality doesn't affect the game of players who don't care for that content. The mere presence of it is going to be bothersome to some people. That is sadly just a given. Bioware, ALL of their teams, just needs to decide whether those types of people are worth listening to. It seems clear to me that there is a right side to be on here, and Bioware, or the MEA team at least, has shown that they're not willing to cross the line and BE on that side. Does Fallen London have LGBT content? I've only ever played a couple minutes of it. I wonder why he specifically mentioned LGBT content, unless it was in context of MEA's weak reception. And I don't believe outside of LGBT circles that has been brought up as one of the prime criticisms of MEA. I'm really hoping it was an innocent remark with unconsciously unfortunate implications. I am still resentful, though, that I feel relegated to the role of discontent gay who takes any comment about his minority group as an attack. He could have referenced many other things in terms of Bioware finding a balance between fan interests but chose this. I'm not familiar with his work. My game catalogue is pretty small compared to other gamers. The spare descriptions that I've read about Fallen London and Sunless Sea don't make it seem like there are any romances at all. Of course, that is not the limit of LGBT content -- you can have that without romances -- but the games seem to be mechanic-heavy, focusing on the player doing various tasks to eek out a living or make their way through society. As for the rest, I did take his remarks to be in response to MEA. We can't know what sort of gaming news he absorbs, or what his experience with the game is. For all we know, he's registered on the new BSN. It might just be a reaction to various things he's seen in gaming media, or perhaps he's heard it discussed as part of the wider aspect of being part of Bioware now, or he could just feel an obligation to defend his employer. We also can't know how he was prompted in the statement by the Eurogamer interviewer. It's important to consider the preceding part of what you quoted. Bioware is in an unique position with the LGBT content in the AAA gaming industry. However, they've also put themselves in this position by specifically marketing the company as inclusive, stating certain things in media about the romance content of their games, appearing at GaymerX, and so forth. Bioware needs to put their money where their mouth is with this content. I'm not overly concerned by his statements vis-a-vis the LGBT content in DA4 itself. He's just a singe writer, a freelancer no less, and is not responsible for any decisions for the game. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 15:06:30 GMT
Does Fallen London have LGBT content? I've only ever played a couple minutes of it. I wonder why he specifically mentioned LGBT content, unless it was in context of MEA's weak reception. And I don't believe outside of LGBT circles that has been brought up as one of the prime criticisms of MEA. I'm really hoping it was an innocent remark with unconsciously unfortunate implications. I am still resentful, though, that I feel relegated to the role of discontent gay who takes any comment about his minority group as an attack. He could have referenced many other things in terms of Bioware finding a balance between fan interests but chose this. I'm not familiar with his work. My game catalogue is pretty small compared to other gamers. The spare descriptions that I've read about Fallen London and Sunless Sea don't make it seem like there are any romances at all. Of course, that is not the limit of LGBT content -- you can have that without romances -- but the games seem to be mechanic-heavy, focusing on the player doing various tasks to eek out a living or make their way through society. As for the rest, I did take his remarks to be in response to MEA. We can't know what sort of gaming news he absorbs, or what his experience with the game is. For all we know, he's registered on the new BSN. It might just be a reaction to various things he's seen in gaming media, or perhaps he's heard it discussed as part of the wider aspect of being part of Bioware now, or he could just feel an obligation to defend his employer. We also can't know how he was prompted in the statement by the Eurogamer interviewer. It's important to consider the preceding part of what you quoted. Bioware is in an unique position with the LGBT content in the AAA gaming industry. However, they've also put themselves in this position by specifically marketing the company as inclusive, stating certain things in media about the romance content of their games, appearing at GaymerX, and so forth. Bioware needs to put their money where their mouth is with this content. I'm not overly concerned by his statements vis-a-vis the LGBT content in DA4 itself. He's just a singe writer, a freelancer no less, and is not responsible for any decisions for the game. Yeah, I am not overly worried about DA4's content with Weekes as lead, as I think he proved his inclusivity in DAI. And I'm projecting worries onto a fairly innocuous statement. But looking at the previous section that you quoted, if he is saying Bioware is unfairly getting criticism for LGBT content when other companies are less inclined to have diversity at all, that's also what I'm upset about. The complaints about MEA are solely to do with content in MEA compared to ME3 and DA games, not comparing them to other companies. So I'm trying not to interpret his words as saying "LGBT people are whining that they didn't get as much content in MEA when it's still a lot better than other companies" but it's hard not to do so. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 15:10:47 GMT
What BW needs is a good reminder that they are no the only company delivering LGBT content. I hope other companies wake up to the scent of gay gold and start delivering some LGBT content, in order for BW to get off their little pedestal of so called inclusivity and realize they aren't the head honcho anymore, and they cannot deliver the bare minimum and expect people to eat it up.
FE Echoes just released and there's a wonderful gay male character in it, who is, from the looks of it, not an annoying trope and is very straight-forward with his homosexuality, and it isn't played for laughs. And that is pretty big coming from a Japanese game.
Maybe Bethesda's upcoming games will put up some pressure on BWs LGBT content. Or any other AAA company, really.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 16:31:15 GMT
Just a quick random sidenote, there's going to be dragon age funko pops slated to come out this year. I wish this meant E3 reveal lol but nah. Still, DA merch is still going, that and the comic book, so I still see Dragon Age in motion overall. (Dorian better get a pop or I will cry). This just popped up on my tumblr feed... I was really expecting more news about "Dylan" first tho. Maybe it is a new comic or something along those lines...  Here is that Eurogamer article. An interview with Alexis Kennedy, who is a writer for the new DA. www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-05-19-writing-the-next-dragon-age |
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Post by blastoandbubin on May 22, 2017 22:07:16 GMT
All I have to say is that if it takes place in Tevinter and I can't play a goddanged blood mage, I might cry.
Bring back interesting mage specs, Bioware, I beg you.
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Post by blastoandbubin on May 22, 2017 22:18:18 GMT
What BW needs is a good reminder that they are no the only company delivering LGBT content. I hope other companies wake up to the scent of gay gold and start delivering some LGBT content, in order for BW to get off their little pedestal of so called inclusivity and realize they aren't the head honcho anymore, and they cannot deliver the bare minimum and expect people to eat it up. FE Echoes just released and there's a wonderful gay male character in it, who is, from the looks of it, not an annoying trope and is very straight-forward with his homosexuality, and it isn't played for laughs. And that is pretty big coming from a Japanese game. Maybe Bethesda's upcoming games will put up some pressure on BWs LGBT content. Or any other AAA company, really. Does Bethesda have actual LGBT content without mods or do they just not give a damn who you marry like in Skyrim? I've only played Oblivion and Skyrim so was wondering. In FO4 it's similar to Skyrim in that the companions are all available for both genders with no mention of anyone's sexuality, but the relationships and romances themselves are more developed and in-depth. Like, they're definitely not in Bioware territory but Bethesda made big strides in making the possible romances feel like real characters and not just walking talking potential storefronts. The content is all equal, too, I think. I don't think Bethesda will ever do companions or romances as in-depth as Bioware because that's not their thing, but they've realized putting the effort in reaps rewards from the fanbase. I do think having their new, more in-depth system in TE6 or whatever game they come out with could put pressure on Bioware, because there's a lot of crossover in the fanbases. I remember remarking to a friend when I was first playing FO4 and flirting up a storm with Piper that Bioware better watch their butts, lol. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 0:44:40 GMT
Does Bethesda have actual LGBT content without mods or do they just not give a damn who you marry like in Skyrim? I've only played Oblivion and Skyrim so was wondering. In FO4 it's similar to Skyrim in that the companions are all available for both genders with no mention of anyone's sexuality, but the relationships and romances themselves are more developed and in-depth. Like, they're definitely not in Bioware territory but Bethesda made big strides in making the possible romances feel like real characters and not just walking talking potential storefronts. The content is all equal, too, I think. I don't think Bethesda will ever do companions or romances as in-depth as Bioware because that's not their thing, but they've realized putting the effort in reaps rewards from the fanbase. I do think having their new, more in-depth system in TE6 or whatever game they come out with could put pressure on Bioware, because there's a lot of crossover in the fanbases. I remember remarking to a friend when I was first playing FO4 and flirting up a storm with Piper that Bioware better watch their butts, lol. Yeah it seemed like FO4 was an experiment for them in this regard, and it turned out pretty well from what I've read. At this point, Bethesda just has to decide if they want to go farther down this road and develop characters further, or are happy with the amount of depth in FO4. It's important to remember that characters aren't the selling point of these Fallout and Elder Scrolls games, exploration and freedom is more the focus, whereas character and plot is the focus for Bioware games. |
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Post by algaeabomination on May 23, 2017 5:55:36 GMT
Yeah, I am not overly worried about DA4's content with Weekes as lead, as I think he proved his inclusivity in DAI. I am, but that's because I don't share his love of killing characters off for angst, and that he centered the personal quest of a bi character around that kind of choice (and that that choice can also off the franchise's only trans guy in the same quest) |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 6:02:58 GMT
Yeah, I am not overly worried about DA4's content with Weekes as lead, as I think he proved his inclusivity in DAI. I am, but that's because I don't share his love of killing characters off for angst, and that he centered the personal quest of a bi character around that kind of choice (and that that choice can also off the franchise's only trans guy in the same quest) The upside is that it likely would be choice related, just as the Iron Bull one was a choice. All of the character deaths have been thrown to the player for choice at some point; they're all avoidable. Some players may not want to make whatever choice (dark ritual), or even rearrange the DA Keep import to avoid an Alistair/Hawke situation in the Fade, but the choice is there. |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 23, 2017 6:59:05 GMT
I am, but that's because I don't share his love of killing characters off for angst, and that he centered the personal quest of a bi character around that kind of choice (and that that choice can also off the franchise's only trans guy in the same quest) The upside is that it likely would be choice related, just as the Iron Bull one was a choice. All of the character deaths have been thrown to the player for choice at some point; they're all avoidable. Some players may not want to make whatever choice (dark ritual), or even rearrange the DA Keep import to avoid an Alistair/Hawke situation in the Fade, but the choice is there. Yeah, I'm hoping that if they decide to kill off an LGBT character, that it'll be the player's choice whether they die and that it won't be super shoehorned in for no reason. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 23, 2017 7:44:41 GMT
Lol, if we get choices, then I'll just keep sending the straight characters to their deaths until there aren't any.
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Much love right back at ya!
