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Post by Lee on Jun 14, 2021 0:48:51 GMT
Ignoring the rest-this point you make is somewhat worthy of a response. The simple fact is the marketing for Mass Effect Legendary edition is largely over. The game is out. Unless you wish to build a time machine, and change years of them excluding us from almost ALL MARKETING including the dragon age team that is oft marketed as the "better" team-I wish you luck with that. The fact is-a patch adding content is far more likely than EA/BioWare's marketing becoming more inclusive (especially retroactively). It's an issue that can be used against them when it comes time to the next game, unlike a pipe dream. sitting around till next time to bring up their failings in hopes of them doing better next time has gotten us next to nothing for years. It's a free internet and you are free to do as you please. Just as it is ours to to do what we can to ask for more than just scraps. To request that they do actually put effort into games they ask for us to pay for just as much as their straight customers. If you don't understand why it's worth standing up for, no matter what the actual outcome is-then you should not waste your time worrying about those who do. |
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 14, 2021 0:51:14 GMT
It's an issue that can be used against them when it comes time to the next game, unlike a pipe dream. sitting around till next time to bring up their failings in hopes of them doing better next time has gotten us next to nothing for years. It's a free internet and you are free to do as you please. Just as it is ours to to do what we can to ask for more than just scraps. To request that they do actually put effort into games they ask for us to pay for just as much as their straight customers. If you don't understand why it's worth standing up for, no matter what the actual outcome is-then you should not waste your time worrying about those who do. And I'm free to say why I think you're doing more harm than good by fixating on a pipe dream instead of things that are actually fixable, whether those things are for this game or the next. |
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Post by Scottphoto on Jun 14, 2021 1:53:21 GMT
I get being frustrated but some people really seem to have unrealistic expectations of what can be done with existing content, and at some points really betrays an ignorance of how programming works. Saying that all the content is already there is only true if romances exist in a vacuum, but they don't, in the first game most of all. The lack of a Kaidan vs Ashley or a threeway confrontation in the first game does matter because its absence impacts event flags. If an event flag tries to trigger without the associated content present, the whole thing grinds to a halt at best. Modders got around this by manipulating the gender flags to essentially jury-rig the dreaded Gay Toggle. That's fine for fan-made content but a published game is held to a higher standard. The fact is that Kaidan's m/m romance not being added back in is not a slight against us specifically. We're collateral damage to the fact that no new voice-work is being done at all. I'm all for holding their feet to the fire to make sure that they don't repeat their mistakes in the next game, but we need to keep our eyes on what it's really about and what's realistic. That's why I had a problem with the MakeJaalBi campaign. So a few things here:
1. I understand what you are saying from a developer standpoint, but they should be the ones explaining these details themselves. Like "hey, sorry guys because of the code connection to this and that, is just not possible to seamlessly do this work, we understand the disappointment on this, but we will work toward future games to do better". It won't make everyone happy, but at least is acknowledged the situation in a way.
2. Another thing is the trophy, and unless it has been patched, the new trophy is impossible for gay players to achieve without being straight on the first two games. This is more problematic because this happened as well with Mass Effect Andromeda, an issue that they acknowledged that was a problem, and one of the reasons they took into consideration to add Jaal as a romance for male players.
3. And lastly, is the fact that they mentioned that based on feedback, they might consider working on bringing the multiplayer mode into the game, which takes a lot of resources, servers, etc to build on, then probably working around this cut content. But because they are open to feedback to multiplayer, players are also expressing their feedback on wanting this cut content be added in as well.
Don't get me wrong, I was skeptical with the Jaal campaign to work given all the situation the game had to deal with at launch, sales, bugs, memes and all that, because it was a lot to work in, but they did, perhaps even more work than fixing Kaidan would be. They showed as a company that they were willing to correct a mistake, and really go forward with representation. That's why this situation hits a lot harder than Andromeda personally, because it feels like a lot of steps taken back into what really seemed there was an effort to move forward with Mass Effect in representation.
So, when they put a lot of work and effort on reworking mass effect 1, naturally people expected that to be fixed in as well. That's in general the overall disappointment, feeling like we are back to square one in terms of decision from the Mass Effect Team, I don't think anyone is doubting the work it would take or not, is just the principle of the 3 things I mentioned that hit more at the end of the day, the people making these decisions. And it just would be better to at least acknowledge the feedback, and come forward with it.
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 14, 2021 2:19:10 GMT
I get being frustrated but some people really seem to have unrealistic expectations of what can be done with existing content, and at some points really betrays an ignorance of how programming works. Saying that all the content is already there is only true if romances exist in a vacuum, but they don't, in the first game most of all. The lack of a Kaidan vs Ashley or a threeway confrontation in the first game does matter because its absence impacts event flags. If an event flag tries to trigger without the associated content present, the whole thing grinds to a halt at best. Modders got around this by manipulating the gender flags to essentially jury-rig the dreaded Gay Toggle. That's fine for fan-made content but a published game is held to a higher standard. The fact is that Kaidan's m/m romance not being added back in is not a slight against us specifically. We're collateral damage to the fact that no new voice-work is being done at all. I'm all for holding their feet to the fire to make sure that they don't repeat their mistakes in the next game, but we need to keep our eyes on what it's really about and what's realistic. That's why I had a problem with the MakeJaalBi campaign. So a few things here:
1. I understand what you are saying from a developer standpoint, but they should be the ones explaining these details themselves. Like "hey, sorry guys because of the code connection to this and that, is just not possible to seamlessly do this work, we understand the disappointment on this, but we will work toward future games to do better". It won't make everyone happy, but at least is acknowledged the situation in a way.
2. Another thing is the trophy, and unless it has been patched, the new trophy is impossible for gay players to achieve without being straight on the first two games. This is more problematic because this happened as well with Mass Effect Andromeda, an issue that they acknowledged that was a problem, and one of the reasons they took into consideration to add Jaal as a romance for male players.
3. And lastly, is the fact that they mentioned that based on feedback, they might consider working on bringing the multiplayer mode into the game, which takes a lot of resources, servers, etc to build on, then probably working around this cut content. But because they are open to feedback to multiplayer, players are also expressing their feedback on wanting this cut content be added in as well.
Don't get me wrong, I was skeptical with the Jaal campaign to work given all the situation the game had to deal with at launch, sales, bugs, memes and all that, because it was a lot to work in, but they did, perhaps even more work than fixing Kaidan would be. They showed as a company that they were willing to correct a mistake, and really go forward with representation. That's why this situation hits a lot harder than Andromeda personally, because it feels like a lot of steps taken back into what really seemed there was an effort to move forward with Mass Effect in representation.
So, when they put a lot of work and effort on reworking mass effect 1, naturally people expected that to be fixed in as well. That's in general the overall disappointment, feeling like we are back to square one in terms of decision from the Mass Effect Team, I don't think anyone is doubting the work it would take or not, is just the principle of the 3 things I mentioned that hit more at the end of the day, the people making these decisions. And it just would be better to at least acknowledge the feedback, and come forward with it.
All fair points, and it's nice to see someone not having knee-jerk reaction to the echo chamber being disrupted. 1: I agree that they should take ownership of the technical reasons why they can't patch it back in without bringing the voice actors back. As much as I dislike Walters I do think that's the direction he was heading with the "it would all fall apart" claim, due to what happens with event flags that lack the corresponding content. At the same time, I think that displaying our own technical ignorance only weakens our case. 2: The trophy seems to be a consequence of them replicating the original trilogy. This is another case where we're collateral damage, not the we were intentionally slighted as we were in Andromeda. It still sucks of course, but this feels to me more like the game just showing its age. 3: It all really depends on whether they're willing to bring back the voice actors to finish the incomplete parts of the cut content. If they are, then I agree that they have no excuse. If they're not, then again we're collateral damage, not being intentionally slighted. Currently everything I've seen indicates option two. My problem with the MakeJaalBi campaign was that I felt it was obscuring the bigger problems. The statement on the patch showed that the developers did understand those problems and how Bi!Jaal fixed most of them, so I was satisfied. Now I'm worried that the bigger problems are again being obscured by the focus on something that always had such a low chance of happening in the first place. Because this is a rerelease instead of a new game, I think that looking at it as being back at square one is the wrong way to think about it. I see this more as a snapshot of their past mistakes and the path they have taken to fixing it, a path I expect them to continue to take when the fifth game is released, especially after the entirely justifiable backlash they got to Andromeda's initial release. |
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Post by farferello on Jun 14, 2021 4:50:52 GMT
All fair points, and it's nice to see someone not having knee-jerk reaction to the echo chamber being disrupted. 1: I agree that they should take ownership of the technical reasons why they can't patch it back in without bringing the voice actors back. As much as I dislike Walters I do think that's the direction he was heading with the "it would all fall apart" claim, due to what happens with event flags that lack the corresponding content. At the same time, I think that displaying our own technical ignorance only weakens our case. 2: The trophy seems to be a consequence of them replicating the original trilogy. This is another case where we're collateral damage, not the we were intentionally slighted as we were in Andromeda. It still sucks of course, but this feels to me more like the game just showing its age. 3: It all really depends on whether they're willing to bring back the voice actors to finish the incomplete parts of the cut content. If they are, then I agree that they have no excuse. If they're not, then again we're collateral damage, not being intentionally slighted. Currently everything I've seen indicates option two. My problem with the MakeJaalBi campaign was that I felt it was obscuring the bigger problems. The statement on the patch showed that the developers did understand those problems and how Bi!Jaal fixed most of them, so I was satisfied. Now I'm worried that the bigger problems are again being obscured by the focus on something that always had such a low chance of happening in the first place. Because this is a rerelease instead of a new game, I think that looking at it as being back at square one is the wrong way to think about it. I see this more as a snapshot of their past mistakes and the path they have taken to fixing it, a path I expect them to continue to take when the fifth game is released, especially after the entirely justifiable backlash they got to Andromeda's initial release. Disrupting the 'echo chamber' are you for real? Do you not see that sitting back and not giving Bioware shit for that lack of inclusivity in the remaster just gives them more opportunity to continue to be shit about it in future games? We campaigned hard to get Jaal's original same sex romance reinstated in the game and Bioware still allowed the remaster to come out with no m/m romance in 1/2 and no f/f in 2. Do you honestly think that if we say nothing about that now, that Bioware will honestly think anything but 'hey our gay players said nothing about the lack of options in the remaster, let's fuck them again in future games because it's clear they'll accept scraps from the bottom of the barrel again.' I mean look at ME:A one option is the depraved bisexual on a random planet, and the other is in the hold and his romance is about a baby and his friend. Then we finally got Jaal but it still felt like it was just thrown in compared to the f/m option with him. (Same can be said for Kaidan and how much of his romance is changed/cut from FShep. You can't even walk arms linked with him in the Citadel dlc as m/m.) If people don't say anything now, it'll show Bioware that they can keep getting away with it time and time again. I agree that they should have show-cased Kaidan's m/m romance in ME3 far more than they did but we can see from devs themselves how little they care about him, never-mind his m/m romance, when they can't even be bothered to spell his name right half the time. If we say nothing now, even if nothing comes from it, Bioware will use that silence against its players in the future to get away with this shit again. Modders have shown how easy it is to add the romance into the game properly, even going so far as to have the correct pronouns for the Shepard's. If modders can do that for free, Bioware has no excuse. On top of it all, Bioware keep cutting its same sex romances and using flimsy excuses that everyone laps up. Jacob was supposed to be gay when they designed him. What do they do? Cut it entirely. Same goes for them cutting the bisexuality of Jack, Thane, and I think Tali/Miranda? also. And you know what? They will continue to do so because they keep getting away with it and people will happily be spoon feed Bioware's excuses for it. |
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rondeeno
Dashing Rogue
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Post by rondeeno on Jun 14, 2021 5:07:49 GMT
Saying that all the content is already there is only true if romances exist in a vacuum, but they don't, in the first game most of all. The lack of a Kaidan vs Ashley or a threeway confrontation in the first game does matter because its absence impacts event flags. If an event flag tries to trigger without the associated content present, the whole thing grinds to a halt at best. Modders got around this by manipulating the gender flags to essentially jury-rig the dreaded Gay Toggle. That's fine for fan-made content but a published game is held to a higher standard. My mod doesn't use a "gay toggle". The way I handled the confrontation scene was by editing it so that if Ashley, Kaidan, and Liara are all being romanced, then the confrontation won't occur until Virmire is completed or Ashley/Kaidan is broken up with beforehand. That way, a threeway confrontation (or an Ashley vs Kaidan confrontation) is not necessary. Just adding a lock-in wouldn't work either because Kaidan's dialogue options would be the same as with FemShep, and the options that lead to romance aren't exactly intuitive in the first game. Kaidan and Ashley's romances essentially progress automatically unless you go out of your way to be a dick to them. Changing that would, again, require new voice work, otherwise becoming trapped in an unwanted romance and getting locked out of the one you do want would be far too easy. I actually edited the first conversations with Ashley and Kaidan so that you have to choose to flirt with them in order to initiate their romance (rather than having the romance start automatically as soon as you talk to them), which doesn't require any new voice work to be recorded. This is something that BioWare could easily implement if they wanted to.
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Post by Lee on Jun 14, 2021 5:14:22 GMT
rondeenoI'm always happy to see you shed light into the darkness that is Mass Effect 1. You are always treasured here!
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 14, 2021 5:44:07 GMT
All fair points, and it's nice to see someone not having knee-jerk reaction to the echo chamber being disrupted. 1: I agree that they should take ownership of the technical reasons why they can't patch it back in without bringing the voice actors back. As much as I dislike Walters I do think that's the direction he was heading with the "it would all fall apart" claim, due to what happens with event flags that lack the corresponding content. At the same time, I think that displaying our own technical ignorance only weakens our case. 2: The trophy seems to be a consequence of them replicating the original trilogy. This is another case where we're collateral damage, not the we were intentionally slighted as we were in Andromeda. It still sucks of course, but this feels to me more like the game just showing its age. 3: It all really depends on whether they're willing to bring back the voice actors to finish the incomplete parts of the cut content. If they are, then I agree that they have no excuse. If they're not, then again we're collateral damage, not being intentionally slighted. Currently everything I've seen indicates option two. My problem with the MakeJaalBi campaign was that I felt it was obscuring the bigger problems. The statement on the patch showed that the developers did understand those problems and how Bi!Jaal fixed most of them, so I was satisfied. Now I'm worried that the bigger problems are again being obscured by the focus on something that always had such a low chance of happening in the first place. Because this is a rerelease instead of a new game, I think that looking at it as being back at square one is the wrong way to think about it. I see this more as a snapshot of their past mistakes and the path they have taken to fixing it, a path I expect them to continue to take when the fifth game is released, especially after the entirely justifiable backlash they got to Andromeda's initial release. Disrupting the 'echo chamber' are you for real? Do you not see that sitting back and not giving Bioware shit for that lack of inclusivity in the remaster just gives them more opportunity to continue to be shit about it in future games? We campaigned hard to get Jaal's original same sex romance reinstated in the game and Bioware still allowed the remaster to come out with no m/m romance in 1/2 and no f/f in 2. Do you honestly think that if we say nothing about that now, that Bioware will honestly think anything but 'hey our gay players said nothing about the lack of options in the remaster, let's fuck them again in future games because it's clear they'll accept scraps from the bottom of the barrel again.' I mean look at ME:A one option is the depraved bisexual on a random planet, and the other is in the hold and his romance is about a baby and his friend. Then we finally got Jaal but it still felt like it was just thrown in compared to the f/m option with him. (Same can be said for Kaidan and how much of his romance is changed/cut from FShep. You can't even walk arms linked with him in the Citadel dlc as m/m.) If people don't say anything now, it'll show Bioware that they can keep getting away with it time and time again. I agree that they should have show-cased Kaidan's m/m romance in ME3 far more than they did but we can see from devs themselves how little they care about him, never-mind his m/m romance, when they can't even be bothered to spell his name right half the time. If we say nothing now, even if nothing comes from it, Bioware will use that silence against its players in the future to get away with this shit again. Modders have shown how easy it is to add the romance into the game properly, even going so far as to have the correct pronouns for the Shepard's. If modders can do that for free, Bioware has no excuse. On top of it all, Bioware keep cutting its same sex romances and using flimsy excuses that everyone laps up. Jacob was supposed to be gay when they designed him. What do they do? Cut it entirely. Same goes for them cutting the bisexuality of Jack, Thane, and I think Tali/Miranda? also. And you know what? They will continue to do so because they keep getting away with it and people will happily be spoon feed Bioware's excuses for it. You need to calm down and stop putting words in my mouth; this is exactly what I was referring to about knee-jerk reactions. Nowhere did I say to sit back and not say anything. I'm saying not to fixate on one issue that had such a low chance of being changed. It just weakens our position even before getting into what it reveals about our lack of programming knowledge. Modders can get away with things that would never fly in a published game. Using their efforts to claim that Bioware could do the same without adding any new assets is meaningless. |
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Post by milanawalters on Jun 14, 2021 8:30:32 GMT
sageoflife lol if people were sitting back and not "fighting for something unfixable" then kaidan would never have been added as a same sex romance ever... i remember that fight going on years and i lived through it but yea why not just sit back and play as a straight white male everywhere, nothing else is "realistic" right? and even headcanons dont work haha because our main heroes would go flirting and sexualizing opposite sex every step theyd take, once again its sci fi, you cant go without it there,am i right bros?! ppffft
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 14, 2021 9:27:41 GMT
sageoflife lol if people were sitting back and not "fighting for something unfixable" then kaidan would never have been added as a same sex romance ever... i remember that fight going on years and i lived through it but yea why not just sit back and play as a straight white male everywhere, nothing else is "realistic" right? and even headcanons dont work haha because our main heroes would go flirting and sexualizing opposite sex every step theyd take, once again its sci fi, you cant go without it there,am i right bros?! ppffft The whole point of the fight to get Kaidan added as a m/m love interest in ME3 is that it was fixable. Comparing adding something to a pending game and adding something back into an existing game that does not already have the full assets needed is a false equivalency. |
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Post by Rouccoco on Jun 14, 2021 9:30:43 GMT
I see people here really don't understand how event flags work. Event flags are variables. You can write functions to set, compare, and manipulate those variables multiple times. If they have variables for every flirt option, and I suspect they do, they can add a function before the confrontation that compares the amount for Kaidan vs others, if you're a male Shep. It would lock you into the romance you selected the most flirts for and set the others to 0, making sure the confrontation never plays, if you're a male Shep flirting with Kaidan. No new dialogue required, they just had to code around it. |
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Post by Scottphoto on Jun 14, 2021 18:22:49 GMT
So a few things here:
1. I understand what you are saying from a developer standpoint, but they should be the ones explaining these details themselves. Like "hey, sorry guys because of the code connection to this and that, is just not possible to seamlessly do this work, we understand the disappointment on this, but we will work toward future games to do better". It won't make everyone happy, but at least is acknowledged the situation in a way.
2. Another thing is the trophy, and unless it has been patched, the new trophy is impossible for gay players to achieve without being straight on the first two games. This is more problematic because this happened as well with Mass Effect Andromeda, an issue that they acknowledged that was a problem, and one of the reasons they took into consideration to add Jaal as a romance for male players.
3. And lastly, is the fact that they mentioned that based on feedback, they might consider working on bringing the multiplayer mode into the game, which takes a lot of resources, servers, etc to build on, then probably working around this cut content. But because they are open to feedback to multiplayer, players are also expressing their feedback on wanting this cut content be added in as well.
Don't get me wrong, I was skeptical with the Jaal campaign to work given all the situation the game had to deal with at launch, sales, bugs, memes and all that, because it was a lot to work in, but they did, perhaps even more work than fixing Kaidan would be. They showed as a company that they were willing to correct a mistake, and really go forward with representation. That's why this situation hits a lot harder than Andromeda personally, because it feels like a lot of steps taken back into what really seemed there was an effort to move forward with Mass Effect in representation.
So, when they put a lot of work and effort on reworking mass effect 1, naturally people expected that to be fixed in as well. That's in general the overall disappointment, feeling like we are back to square one in terms of decision from the Mass Effect Team, I don't think anyone is doubting the work it would take or not, is just the principle of the 3 things I mentioned that hit more at the end of the day, the people making these decisions. And it just would be better to at least acknowledge the feedback, and come forward with it.
All fair points, and it's nice to see someone not having knee-jerk reaction to the echo chamber being disrupted. 1: I agree that they should take ownership of the technical reasons why they can't patch it back in without bringing the voice actors back. As much as I dislike Walters I do think that's the direction he was heading with the "it would all fall apart" claim, due to what happens with event flags that lack the corresponding content. At the same time, I think that displaying our own technical ignorance only weakens our case. 2: The trophy seems to be a consequence of them replicating the original trilogy. This is another case where we're collateral damage, not the we were intentionally slighted as we were in Andromeda. It still sucks of course, but this feels to me more like the game just showing its age. 3: It all really depends on whether they're willing to bring back the voice actors to finish the incomplete parts of the cut content. If they are, then I agree that they have no excuse. If they're not, then again we're collateral damage, not being intentionally slighted. Currently everything I've seen indicates option two. My problem with the MakeJaalBi campaign was that I felt it was obscuring the bigger problems. The statement on the patch showed that the developers did understand those problems and how Bi!Jaal fixed most of them, so I was satisfied. Now I'm worried that the bigger problems are again being obscured by the focus on something that always had such a low chance of happening in the first place. Because this is a rerelease instead of a new game, I think that looking at it as being back at square one is the wrong way to think about it. I see this more as a snapshot of their past mistakes and the path they have taken to fixing it, a path I expect them to continue to take when the fifth game is released, especially after the entirely justifiable backlash they got to Andromeda's initial release.
See the problem is, we can have a decent discussion without the "knee jerk reaction" and "echo chamber" comments, no need to invalidate anyone's thoughts here. It's a forum for members of the LGBTQ+ community to feel safe to vent or be happy about gay content in games. And bioware one way or another means a lot to us because is what reunited us and got together this way, so when that same bioware is the one that's really hurting the community, people will be passionate and upset and rightfully so with the points I mentioned. At the end of the day, you have you're opinion on the matter, and others have theirs, sometimes is best to just agree to disagree when it comes down to it.
They are expressing their disappointment to bioware in the end and hope to be better, it's also just being tired of having to go through the same situation for us. Mass Effect 3 was a step up for the franchise at its time, it gave hope, Andromeda was a step back they corrected and gave hope again, and then we are back here again. I understand what you mean that the case here is different because it's the same old game, it just feels like a missed golden opportunity to rectify at least Kaidan knowing it had already a lot of work done, working on thane, jack being complicated, yeah I can agree that's a lot, but Kaidan has the most done work scrapped, and they did approach the modding community also for the project and took some of the mods into consideration for upgrading Mass Effect 1, so they could have also collaborated with them on this. So at the very least even if nothing changes here, they are raising the concern of having to go through the same situation again on the next mass effect project, something they have now a lot of time to work on and make sure to take into consideration in the early stages of production. We haven't had a proper mass effect track record done by right yet, so until that happens, there will always be the fear. Is not like say Dragon Age, that regardless what one might think about the romance options, there is at least consistent effort on it so that fear isn't present at least not in the same way. Same for me with SWTOR, I feel good and have no fear on bi options being present now with the game in the future.
Also on the notes:
1. Well it's not really technical ignorance, it's more simply feeling they have been heard at least.
2. the trophy wasn't a thing in the old games because there wasn't a trilogy trophy, this trophy is about having a romance on all 3 games, specifically made for this collection. They could have just not done it in the end.
3. Yeah, again I understand that, but they are open to the feedback so people are expressing it and see what happens.
But yeah I think in the end is best just to agree to disagree here, rather than pushing further personally.
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Foelhe
Grizzled Warrior
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Post by Foelhe on Jun 14, 2021 19:20:30 GMT
I really don't know why they wouldn't just lock the jealousy confrontation so it doesn't happen until after Virmire. I'm guessing that would take minimal programming and guarantee you only have to choose between Liara and whoever survived. Not impossible in the slightest.
Edit: Whoops, and I see now that rondeeno did exactly this, so obviously it's an option. I have no programming skills whatsoever and I came up with that solution the second someone pointed out the problem. If BioWare can't be bothered to put that much effort in why should we cut them any slack?
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 15, 2021 1:41:55 GMT
All fair points, and it's nice to see someone not having knee-jerk reaction to the echo chamber being disrupted. 1: I agree that they should take ownership of the technical reasons why they can't patch it back in without bringing the voice actors back. As much as I dislike Walters I do think that's the direction he was heading with the "it would all fall apart" claim, due to what happens with event flags that lack the corresponding content. At the same time, I think that displaying our own technical ignorance only weakens our case. 2: The trophy seems to be a consequence of them replicating the original trilogy. This is another case where we're collateral damage, not the we were intentionally slighted as we were in Andromeda. It still sucks of course, but this feels to me more like the game just showing its age. 3: It all really depends on whether they're willing to bring back the voice actors to finish the incomplete parts of the cut content. If they are, then I agree that they have no excuse. If they're not, then again we're collateral damage, not being intentionally slighted. Currently everything I've seen indicates option two. My problem with the MakeJaalBi campaign was that I felt it was obscuring the bigger problems. The statement on the patch showed that the developers did understand those problems and how Bi!Jaal fixed most of them, so I was satisfied. Now I'm worried that the bigger problems are again being obscured by the focus on something that always had such a low chance of happening in the first place. Because this is a rerelease instead of a new game, I think that looking at it as being back at square one is the wrong way to think about it. I see this more as a snapshot of their past mistakes and the path they have taken to fixing it, a path I expect them to continue to take when the fifth game is released, especially after the entirely justifiable backlash they got to Andromeda's initial release.
See the problem is, we can have a decent discussion without the "knee jerk reaction" and "echo chamber" comments, no need to invalidate anyone's thoughts here. It's a forum for members of the LGBTQ+ community to feel safe to vent or be happy about gay content in games. And bioware one way or another means a lot to us because is what reunited us and got together this way, so when that same bioware is the one that's really hurting the community, people will be passionate and upset and rightfully so with the points I mentioned. At the end of the day, you have you're opinion on the matter, and others have theirs, sometimes is best to just agree to disagree when it comes down to it.
They are expressing their disappointment to bioware in the end and hope to be better, it's also just being tired of having to go through the same situation for us. Mass Effect 3 was a step up for the franchise at its time, it gave hope, Andromeda was a step back they corrected and gave hope again, and then we are back here again. I understand what you mean that the case here is different because it's the same old game, it just feels like a missed golden opportunity to rectify at least Kaidan knowing it had already a lot of work done, working on thane, jack being complicated, yeah I can agree that's a lot, but Kaidan has the most done work scrapped, and they did approach the modding community also for the project and took some of the mods into consideration for upgrading Mass Effect 1, so they could have also collaborated with them on this. So at the very least even if nothing changes here, they are raising the concern of having to go through the same situation again on the next mass effect project, something they have now a lot of time to work on and make sure to take into consideration in the early stages of production. We haven't had a proper mass effect track record done by right yet, so until that happens, there will always be the fear. Is not like say Dragon Age, that regardless what one might think about the romance options, there is at least consistent effort on it so that fear isn't present at least not in the same way. Same for me with SWTOR, I feel good and have no fear on bi options being present now with the game in the future.
Also on the notes:
1. Well it's not really technical ignorance, it's more simply feeling they have been heard at least.
2. the trophy wasn't a thing in the old games because there wasn't a trilogy trophy, this trophy is about having a romance on all 3 games, specifically made for this collection. They could have just not done it in the end.
3. Yeah, again I understand that, but they are open to the feedback so people are expressing it and see what happens.
But yeah I think in the end is best just to agree to disagree here, rather than pushing further personally.
The remarks about knee-jerk reactions and echo chambers were in response to the way I was jumped on when I went against the majority opinion. If this is a place for all of us to discuss our feelings on the subject then we need to be prepared for disagreement. I'm all for providing feedback. I've done it myself, particularly over the fiasco that was the m/m options in Andromeda. However, I also worry that some forms of feedback can be counterproductive, particularly when it obscures the larger issue or makes us look ignorant about the game-making process. I want our feedback to be as strong as possible. All the modifications to the game are quality of life improvements; balancing abilities, loosening weapon restrictions, and making the Mako less frustrating. That's a different beast from adding something back in story-wise that doesn't already have 100% of its assets present. I feel that conflating the two weakens our position. 1: I get wanting to be heard. But some of the claims being made for that purpose are just factually wrong; most notably the claim that all the dialogue for Kaidan's m/m romance is present in light of the missing confrontation scenes. 2: Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell those trophies are just for having a romance in each game, not for carrying a single romance from one game to the next. I don't see any appreciable difference between that and the separate romance achievements from when they were released separately. It would have been better if they had just restricted them to each individual game. 3. If I feel feedback is counterproductive, I'm going to point it out. I've done it before and I have no doubt I'll be doing it again. |
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Post by turianlannister on Jun 27, 2021 1:22:39 GMT
I just remember that ThaneMod's profile on her forum gave her birth year as 1980, she's way too old to be acting like a diva
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Post by VFerreira93 on Jul 4, 2021 15:40:13 GMT
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Post by turianlannister on Jul 4, 2021 19:17:38 GMT
The butt shots restored mod is pure cringe |
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Post by dgcatanisiri on Jul 4, 2021 21:08:50 GMT
The butt shots restored mod is pure cringe
*sighs* Why does it not surprise me that THAT is one of the first things done with this?
Can we just burn the fandom and start over from scratch?
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Post by turianlannister on Jul 5, 2021 0:12:42 GMT
What makes me lol is that in posts part of the butt shot mod page someone is claiming that Yvonne Strahovski was mad that the butt shots had been removed. How would she even know about them being removed? She's even less involved in the fandom than Brandon Keener and Ash Sroka
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Post by disgustednoise on Jul 5, 2021 4:51:57 GMT
Yvonne probably doesn't even remember who Miranda is lol.
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