paindelta
Dashing Rogue
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
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Post by paindelta on May 19, 2017 19:56:07 GMT
Alternatively known as Indoctrination Theory or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the End.- How do you feel about the child/Catalyst? What would you do differently with it, would you include it at all?
- Destroy/Control/Synthesis/Refuse? What are good arguments towards the validity of the Reapers' offer, or the rational of the choice (your) Shepard makes? Was it a good choice?
- How could the endings be done better, and why is it better? Completely rewritten or adjusted slightly? What Happened to Dark Matter, Bioware?
- Does the Indoctrination Theory really fix anything, and does the author intent matter when talking about the endings?
I'm not really gonna add my own thoughts/arguments to the OP itself, so it is left open ended for general discussion!
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 20, 2017 3:06:17 GMT
The MAIN problem with the ending is that they hadn't figured it out well in advance, and it wound up being a cobbled-together piece of crap.
If you're gonna sell your story as a trilogy, you should damn well know how it's gonna end before you even start making the first one, lol.
I went with Synthesis. People love to squawk at me about how I raped the entire galaxy or some shit. Well, guess what. I'll throw every organic man, woman and child out the airlock before I let them touch even one Geth. So there.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 16:22:10 GMT
Not such a fan of IT. Watched the videos, read threads about it...having a hard time believing BioWare had a secret plot that, five years later, they still haven't revealed. It's great headcanon (I have plenty of my own) but I don't believe there's any evidence that BioWare even remotely intended it to be true.
I play on PC so I use MEHEM. That's my headcanon for the ending. I like my ending with Shepard and Kaidan both surviving, then retiring on Earth and starting a family. Synthesis kills Shepard, so that's out, and Control definitely ends the relationship. That leaves me with Destroy. Since MEHEM allows the geth and EDI to survive, it works well for me. Even without the mod, I used headcanon to make the Catalyst conversation to be nothing more than a blood loss-induced hallucination where there was really just one Red Button to press to kill the Reapers.
As to Dark Energy (that's what was going on in ME2), I feel like it was partially picked up and reworked in MEA in the form of the Scourge.
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Post by Scottphoto on May 20, 2017 16:58:13 GMT
Not such a fan of IT. Watched the videos, read threads about it...having a hard time believing BioWare had a secret plot that, five years later, they still haven't revealed. It's great headcanon (I have plenty of my own) but I don't believe there's any evidence that BioWare even remotely intended it to be true. I play on PC so I use MEHEM. That's my headcanon for the ending. I like my ending with Shepard and Kaidan both surviving, then retiring on Earth and starting a family. Synthesis kills Shepard, so that's out, and Control definitely ends the relationship. That leaves me with Destroy. Since MEHEM allows the geth and EDI to survive, it works well for me. Even without the mod, I used headcanon to make the Catalyst conversation to be nothing more than a blood loss-induced hallucination where there was really just one Red Button to press to kill the Reapers. As to Dark Energy (that's what was going on in ME2), I feel like it was partially picked up and reworked in MEA in the form of the Scourge. Oh wow didn't know the MEHEM did so many changes I need to try it, plus it works since they don't plan to canon any ending. Personally when we didn't have the EC, I was all down for the indoctrination theory to be true, it would have been such a really great twist if it had been implemented right from the start though. The extended cut definitely fixed things considerably in terms of content but I still wasn't a fan of it destroying all synthetics. It just bugged me that all this time we are told the reapers are the worst, than suddenly we have to believe they had their own reasons at the very last minute of the game. The reapers left way too much bloodshed to just let them go and pretend nothing happened. I feel that instead of the starchild if we had someone like EDI or Legion explaining the 3 possibilities it would have been more compelling because you see their struggle to be organic and they were good examples of synthetics. That and I was looking forward to battle Harbinger since ME2 and I didn't get that chance :/ Sure it would have been videogamey, but if done right, it could also have been an epic battle to end it on with strong narrative with it, battling Kai Leng or just Leng himself being on the game was very videogamey if anything. |
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paindelta
Dashing Rogue
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Posts: 32
Likes: 118
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Post by paindelta on May 20, 2017 17:16:13 GMT
I actually really don't like the MEHEM, I don't even like Shepard's implied breath for the best Destroy option because it took me out of the gravity of the situation. Shepard dying felt like the right way for their story to end, for me. "I'll rest when I'm dead." and all that.
Then again I also like the Refuse ending and kind of flipflop between that and Destroy for my canon lol, it feels like such a human thing to impulsively shoot the Catalyst after everything that happened before it. I'm still not 100% into indoctrination theory but I like that Refusal was worded as the one that operated the most on real world logic and not video game logic- just because you come across a red bottle in a cave that says POTION doesn't mean you should drink it, just because you are told that this machine will stop the Reapers doesn't mean it will.
... and I really really like the Catalyst as a character from a purely narrative sort of perspective. Like it doesn't matter if your Shepard hates kids or wouldn't care about a single kid dying in a war because it happens, but the Catalyst/child is simply just the future of Humanity and the anxiety surrounding your hand in that so it made sense that the Reapers took the form of that fear to talk to you. They could've made the dream sequences more interesting but I picked up what they were putting down.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 20, 2017 20:17:47 GMT
Uh, Shepard is actually the Catalyst, and Starchild is really just Shepard's inner psyche, taking the form of their imaginary friend from when they were a child.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 2:57:06 GMT
I actually really don't like the MEHEM, I don't even like Shepard's implied breath for the best Destroy option because it took me out of the gravity of the situation. Shepard dying felt like the right way for their story to end, for me. "I'll rest when I'm dead." and all that. The reason I got into playing ME is because I heard I could do a same sex romance with my male Shepard. Hence, I'm all about making sure that romance lives beyond the confines of the game. Call me a romantic. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 19:34:48 GMT
I think I could have been happier with the idea of synthesis if it weren't some space magic with no explanation and which makes no sense whatsoever (how can an energy wave graft organic matter to synthetics and implant organic life with synthetic matter?) if instead the Catalyst or Crucible was just able to deactivate each Reaper but keep them intact; this would allow the Milky Way races to access the collective cultural data stored in each Reaper from previous cycles of harvested species and allow for a technological boom without space magic. It would be advancing scientific knowledge by years but still be explainable and grounded in information we learned in ME2.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 21:04:32 GMT
Now, I'm a Destroy guy. I've tried Synthesis once, it was happy enough, but poor Kaidan was left sad and lonely without Shepard once again. That part I don't like. And, as you say, it doesn't make any kind of sense. Nor do I think it's "inevitable" (maybe, after a fashion, but I don't think it means that someday we'll all glow green; and it's just as likely that we'll modify ourselves genetically).
Control makes sense to me because it's overwriting the Catalyst OS with the Shepard OS. I may not like the idea of Shepard leaving Kaidan behind but I can see how it would work.
As for Destroy, I can't say I know how it works. Somehow, it targets Reaper tech in waves of energy. It may or may not also affect other types of technology. I put that down to the energy wave having a virus in it that, depending on how many resources you threw at the Crucible, was either very specific or not that specific. The more specific it is the more it can limit itself to just Reaper tech. (Headcanon, obviously.) And, of course, with less overall destruction it becomes more likely that Shepard can survive. Thus, Shepard lives with high EMS.
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firmicute
The Beastmaster
them please, if you can be bothered :3
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Post by firmicute on May 21, 2017 22:40:47 GMT
The MAIN problem with the ending is that they hadn't figured it out well in advance, and it wound up being a cobbled-together piece of crap. If you're gonna sell your story as a trilogy, you should damn well know how it's gonna end before you even start making the first one, lol. I went with Synthesis. People love to squawk at me about how I raped the entire galaxy or some shit. Well, guess what. I'll throw every organic man, woman and child out the airlock before I let them touch even one Geth. So there. yeah.. i'd feel bad basically genociding a whole people.. If someone isn't happy with being semi sync they can g off themselves, free will and all But i wont give into the genocide of at least a people and surely some other feeling living individuals just because they dont look like humans (yay, speciesism) to save the rest.. yeas, the need of the many, but my ass, the get were made to be slaves and even in war maintained moderation-they could have done what the quarian wanted to dom, but they didnt. So I wont do it either.. whoever is unhappy with being sey sync can deal with it in their own way. and control..? yeah, because becoming an undying godlike being has always been incredible healthy for a psyche.. and not lead to raving lunatics.. I dont see why shep should be any different |
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paindelta
Dashing Rogue
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Posts: 32
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Post by paindelta on May 21, 2017 22:52:15 GMT
I think I could have been happier with the idea of synthesis if it weren't some space magic with no explanation and which makes no sense whatsoever (how can an energy wave graft organic matter to synthetics and implant organic life with synthetic matter?) if instead the Catalyst or Crucible was just able to deactivate each Reaper but keep them intact; this would allow the Milky Way races to access the collective cultural data stored in each Reaper from previous cycles of harvested species and allow for a technological boom without space magic. It would be advancing scientific knowledge by years but still be explainable and grounded in information we learned in ME2. tbh synthesis bugs me more on an thematic/ethical level than it being space magic, since Mass Effect rings more of space fantasy than sci-fi anyway Like none of the endings allow you to put forth the idea that synthetics and organics are two different but equally valuable forms of life that can work together. Control regards synthetics as tools, Destroy regards synthetics as disposable and Synthesis is made on the plain false assumption that there can be no understanding between the two without assimilation. Refusal is, well, Refusal. I wish we could actually debate the Catalyst more, having the final battle being just a verbal fight using your previous choices/alignment/history as your sources would've been cool. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 2:26:51 GMT
Now, I'm a Destroy guy. I've tried Synthesis once, it was happy enough, but poor Kaidan was left sad and lonely without Shepard once again. That part I don't like. And, as you say, it doesn't make any kind of sense. Nor do I think it's "inevitable" (maybe, after a fashion, but I don't think it means that someday we'll all glow green; and it's just as likely that we'll modify ourselves genetically). Control makes sense to me because it's overwriting the Catalyst OS with the Shepard OS. I may not like the idea of Shepard leaving Kaidan behind but I can see how it would work. As for Destroy, I can't say I know how it works. Somehow, it targets Reaper tech in waves of energy. It may or may not also affect other types of technology. I put that down to the energy wave having a virus in it that, depending on how many resources you threw at the Crucible, was either very specific or not that specific. The more specific it is the more it can limit itself to just Reaper tech. (Headcanon, obviously.) And, of course, with less overall destruction it becomes more likely that Shepard can survive. Thus, Shepard lives with high EMS. IMO it's that the Crucible targets Reaper code, so the geth and EDI, who have Reaper tech intrinsically embedded, and the mass relays all would be targeted. But any other form of technology wouldn't. But I don't like that it's only destroy that permits Shepard to live. It's all space magic, but why does control and synthesis require completing breaking down Shep to the molecular level in order to function? And why then doesn't destroy also need this? I guess I could see control if it's actually Shep's consciousness which is uploaded, but the catalyst says it's an AI based off Shep. It really felt like Bioware didn't think it appropriate for Shepard to live in order to maintain their "artistic integrity" rather than because it was logical to the story. There could have been better ways of killing off Shepard. Heck, they were already close to bleeding out by the time they reached the catalyst; they could have just made the color coded choice with their last dying breath. I think I could have been happier with the idea of synthesis if it weren't some space magic with no explanation and which makes no sense whatsoever (how can an energy wave graft organic matter to synthetics and implant organic life with synthetic matter?) if instead the Catalyst or Crucible was just able to deactivate each Reaper but keep them intact; this would allow the Milky Way races to access the collective cultural data stored in each Reaper from previous cycles of harvested species and allow for a technological boom without space magic. It would be advancing scientific knowledge by years but still be explainable and grounded in information we learned in ME2. tbh synthesis bugs me more on an thematic/ethical level than it being space magic, since Mass Effect rings more of space fantasy than sci-fi anyway Like none of the endings allow you to put forth the idea that synthetics and organics are two different but equally valuable forms of life that can work together. Control regards synthetics as tools, Destroy regards synthetics as disposable and Synthesis is made on the plain false assumption that there can be no understanding between the two without assimilation. Refusal is, well, Refusal. I wish we could actually debate the Catalyst more, having the final battle being just a verbal fight using your previous choices/alignment/history as your sources would've been cool. Yeah, the theme of the series suddenly was forced to shift to synthetics and organics can never coexist peacefully in ME3 in order to reach the ending. ME2 demonstrated that it was possible, as did the Rannoch arc. So it was a false conclusion that Shep just blindly followed with the catalyst. I agree that if past choices could have influenced the ending there wouldn't have been an outcry; if like Tuchanka and Rannoch we could only get the "best" version through importing the correct choices from ME2 it would have worked a lot better. ME was about rising above past conflict and joining together, so it was really gross that Bioware's top choice ending took away all agency from the galaxy and denied everyone the chance to rise above their base natures. It imposed a "better" nature on everyone which really is antithetical to the themes of the trilogy. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 6:23:28 GMT
Alternatively known as Indoctrination Theory or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the End.- How do you feel about the child/Catalyst? What would you do differently with it, would you include it at all?
- Destroy/Control/Synthesis/Refuse? What are good arguments towards the validity of the Reapers' offer, or the rational of the choice (your) Shepard makes? Was it a good choice?
- How could the endings be done better, and why is it better? Completely rewritten or adjusted slightly? What Happened to Dark Matter, Bioware?
- Does the Indoctrination Theory really fix anything, and does the author intent matter when talking about the endings?
I'm not really gonna add my own thoughts/arguments to the OP itself, so it is left open ended for general discussion!
Unpopular opinions, coming up  How do you feel about the child/Catalyst? What would you do differently with it, would you include it at all?
I loved it and was really wowed by that revelation. The fact that the reapers were created and are simply acting as they were programmed was shocking and fascinating. The organics v. synthetics theme was interesting, as it pops up in sci-fi a lot. I don't think I would change anything. Furthermore, the Catalyst absolutely represents The Other, a classic figure in sci-fi, and I loved that. Destroy/Control/Synthesis/Refuse? What are good arguments towards the validity of the Reapers' offer, or the rational of the choice (your) Shepard makes? Was it a good choice?
I choose "Destroy" every time because the other two have massive issues with consent, and "Refuse" is not a real choice. How could the endings be done better, and why is it better? Completely rewritten or adjusted slightly? What Happened to Dark Matter, Bioware?
After going back and playing the first two games a couple times, there was one mission that stuck out to me, and that of course was Tali's mission in ME2, where they don't understand why the sun is expanding so quickly. Upon reflection, I realized that story line was never followed up on, and I learned later it was meant to be part of an overarching dark matter-related plot line, and that this plot line was discarded for the vanilla endings in ME3. I was really disappointed to learn this, even though I love the ending of ME3. Personally, I think the two should have been woven together somehow, or the dark matter issue should have been addressed in a DLC. The organics v. synthetics makes for a better "over all" ending because it is a moral theme, whereas the dark matter issue is more of a science fiction-y narrative type thing. It would be something that occurs in a single Star Trek episode, for example, whereas the synthetics v. organics would stretch throughout the whole series (with characters such as Data or The Doctor). Does the Indoctrination Theory really fix anything, and does the author intent matter when talking about the endings?
I read a bit from the link and it just seems like a theory put together by a disgruntled fan. It's fine for a headcanon I guess. Does author intent ever matter? Yes and no? A work should stand on its own and be enjoyed and judged as is. An author's "intent" should always be evident, even if that intent isn't clear (such as the ending of Inception; the lack of clarity is intentional, at least according to Nolan... just watched an interview on this  ). But of course when it comes to headcanons, and fanfic and fan art, anything goes imo. |
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firmicute
The Beastmaster
them please, if you can be bothered :3
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Post by firmicute on May 22, 2017 13:35:59 GMT
..i think genocide isnt really a consensual thing either..
its the choice between shit, shit and another shit.
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Post by The Haunting of Praise Adrast on May 22, 2017 18:25:12 GMT
Indoctrination Theory seemed totally plausible before the Extended Cut, which throws a few wrenches in the works. For my first playthrough (pre-EC) I chose Destroy because it just seemed the most logical. I wasn't into altering the genetic code of every living being in the galaxy without their knowledge or consent. Control was too silly for me. When presented with the three choices, my mind also immediately went to the meta: blue is paragon, red is renegade...but TIM is paragon and Anderson is renegade? It didn't jive, and I assumed I was being lied to. And so Indoctrination Theory.
I don't have an issue with a hero being sacrificed if it makes sense, like (potentially) Dragon Age Origins or Dragon's Dogma. But it seemed that Shepard was sacrificed on the altar of edginess or something–why exactly did Shep need to leap into a beam and disintegrate for Synthesis to work? The emotional highlight of the end for me was sitting with Anderson. I thought Shepard was gonna die there, and it would have been bittersweet and fine.
Now I largely let my headcanons roam free as an end to the trilogy, to be honest. My ending is always a bit janky in aspects, but it's the best I can do on a modless console:
1) Before going to destroy the Cerberus base (aka the point of no return), finish all missions, all DLC, and the first half of Citadel (complete the story but don't start the party). Create a save.
2) Finish the game, choose Destroy. Shepard takes a breath.
3) Decide some time has passed and Shepard is healed.
4) Load save. The party is a reunion/one last hangout for everyone before going their separate ways. There isn't much dialogue about the Reaper War that's still raging, but ignore any that comes up since you already won, hooray. EDI is there because the Starchild was a LYING REAPER BABBY or simply a manifestation of Shepard's indoctrinated psyche.
5) Have a lot of little blue children.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 18:44:01 GMT
Indoctrination Theory seemed totally plausible before the Extended Cut, which throws a few wrenches in the works. For my first playthrough (pre-EC) I chose Destroy because it just seemed the most logical. I wasn't into altering the genetic code of every living being in the galaxy without their knowledge or consent. Control was too silly for me. When presented with the three choices, my mind also immediately went to the meta: blue is paragon, red is renegade...but TIM is paragon and Anderson is renegade? It didn't jive, and I assumed I was being lied to. And so Indoctrination Theory. I don't have an issue with a hero being sacrificed if it makes sense, like (potentially) Dragon Age Origins or Dragon's Dogma. But it seemed that Shepard was sacrificed on the altar of edginess or something–why exactly did Shep need to leap into a beam and disintegrate for Synthesis to work? The emotional highlight of the end for me was sitting with Anderson. I thought Shepard was gonna die there, and it would have been bittersweet and fine. Now I largely let my headcanons roam free as an end to the trilogy, to be honest. My ending is always a bit janky in aspects, but it's the best I can do on a modless console: 1) Before going to destroy the Cerberus base (aka the point of no return), finish all missions, all DLC, and the first half of Citadel (complete the story but don't start the party). Create a save. 2) Finish the game, choose Destroy. Shepard takes a breath. 3) Decide some time has passed and Shepard is healed. 4) Load save. The party is a reunion/one last hangout for everyone before going their separate ways. There isn't much dialogue about the Reaper War that's still raging, but ignore any that comes up since you already won, hooray. EDI is there because the Starchild was a LYING REAPER BABBY or simply a manifestation of Shepard's indoctrinated psyche. 5) Have a lot of little blue children. That's how I headcanon ME3+DLC too (minus the blue bebes). There's more Canadian meat involved. For...breakfast! |
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Ark
The Beastmaster
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Post by Ark on May 22, 2017 18:50:06 GMT
I have to do a lot of headcanoning to come close to "liking" the endings personally. Like choosing Control while headcanoning that my Shepard maintains enough of his personality to order the Reapers to drive themselves into the nearest back hole, then shuts himself down. Of course the Extended Cut contradicted that entirely. So yea, synthesis I guess? Not that I'm happy with it.  |
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Post by FadelessRipley on May 30, 2017 14:19:00 GMT
I still have not chosen my canon ending for my ME trilogy run. I've only finished ME3 twice despite having at least 6 or 7 OT runs - once with Destroy, once with Control. I just stop before the point of no return. Control really isn't an option for me personally, though, no matter how rousing (as usual) Paragon-Catalyst2.0-Shep's speech is.  Synthesis isn't an option either, as I can't force evolution along in the space of a few seconds. High-EMS Destroy is probably what I will pick, once I settle on a headcanon that plausibly allows the Geth and EDI to survive. I have a vague one that involves the Quarians, inspired by Shep's valiant efforts to make peace on Rannoch, deciding to work to re-activate the Geth. Then, once the Normandy is found safely, Tali goes on a Project Lazarus-style quest to restore EDI to 100% functionality, exactly as she was. This is successful and they all live happily ever after, the end. That being said,there is something interesting about having an ending that involves sacrifice, and doesn't allow the PC to have the happily-ever-after. I'm not saying the execution of such an idea was perfect here - it bloody wasn't - but from a narrative perspective, it is different. Dragon Age: Origins offered this, but it was possible to get around it easily enough if you were willing to trust Morrigan. The immediate effects were not as obvious. ME3, particularly pre-EC, doesn't have any room for manoeuver - there needs to be a sacrifice and a massive-scale change to the galactic order, unless the whole thing is just allowed to continue. I toyed with Control as my ending because while I was willing to sacrifice Shep, I couldn't bear to lose the Geth and EDI. I think this ending could have had so much more - EDI could have been there, telling Shep to choose destroy because she has evolved to the point where she is willing to accept certain "non-functionality" for the sake of her friends and the greater galaxy. But nah, we just got star child rambling on. Now the catalyst itself wasn't necessarily a bad narrative choice either, particularly if you take the Leviathan DLC into account. Personally I found it all the more chilling - the Reapers don't destroy out of any sort of malice or blood thirst - they are literally following the Catalyst's directive, which it was given by Leviathan. It makes them even more merciless and terrifying, in a way. It's also a stark contrast with the Geth/EDI, who have evolved in their individuality and can make choices, and also have emotions and thoughts. For my Shep it was infuriating, because she couldn't reason with the Catalyst at all, but she knows AI are capable of reason. The Geth and EDI are better than the Reapers, which makes Destroy even more awful.  I don't necessarily like the colour-code endings, but I think the premise wasn't necessarily entirely terrible. |
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Post by The Haunting of Praise Adrast on May 30, 2017 14:49:21 GMT
That being said,there is something interesting about having an ending that involves sacrifice, and doesn't allow the PC to have the happily-ever-after. I agree with that. I've played several games where there's only the bittersweet sacrifice of the PC and it can still feel like the perfect ending. It's completely nuts to me, though, that BioWare would create this three-game saga, hundreds of hours, give Shepard companions and potentially a love interest that spans all those games and hours...and give absolutely no option for the corny happily-ever-after. Even if it was extremely difficult to get–I'm just surprised that they'd think it was a good idea to go all edgelord with the endings for this beloved character. If they didn't see the blowback coming then they're extremely clueless about what players want. ("YOU DON'T SAY!" - m/m Andromeda players) |
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Post by FadelessRipley on May 30, 2017 14:57:29 GMT
That being said,there is something interesting about having an ending that involves sacrifice, and doesn't allow the PC to have the happily-ever-after. I agree with that. I've played several games where there's only the bittersweet sacrifice of the PC and it can still feel like the perfect ending. It's completely nuts to me, though, that BioWare would create this three-game saga, hundreds of hours, give Shepard companions and potentially a love interest that spans all those games and hours...and give absolutely no option for the corny happily-ever-after. Even if it was extremely difficult to get–I'm just surprised that they'd think it was a good idea to go all edgelord with the endings for this beloved character. If they didn't see the blowback coming then they're extremely clueless about what players want. ("YOU DON'T SAY!" - m/m Andromeda players) Yes, I agree with that. Even the pre-EC, crazily-high-EMS Destroy ending would have been fine, if you could have had the payoff of a happy ending. They could have made it like the Suicide Mission, where you had to meet certain conditions to guarantee the best outcome. Or make it like keeping poor Miranda alive in ME3.  Like, honestly, that laundry list was ridiculous. Good thing my FemShep adored her. "Yeah, sure, have access to the Spectre files, no worries!!" I kinda saw it as making up for giving Jack an all access pass to Cerberus files against her wishes in ME2.  |
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). But of course when it comes to headcanons, and fanfic and fan art, anything goes imo. 
Synthesis isn't an option either, as I can't force evolution along in the space of a few seconds. 
Like, honestly, that laundry list was ridiculous. Good thing my FemShep adored her. "Yeah, sure, have access to the Spectre files, no worries!!" I kinda saw it as making up for giving Jack an all access pass to Cerberus files against her wishes in ME2. 
Much love right back at ya!
