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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 24, 2017 22:32:16 GMT
Oghren. He was mildly irritating in Origins, so I left him at camp. I was bummed that HE, of all characters, returned for Awakening and his deadbeat dad storyline was the icing on a crap cake. I also have had enough Varric, thank you. He's fine, especially in DA2. I don't necessarily dislike him, even. But he felt completely forced in Inquisition; I hope he stays in Kirkwall next game. James Vega, no thank you. Although part of that, at least, is that FemShep is forced to either be an a-hole to him OR indulge him and throw herself at him.
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indrexu
Grizzled Warrior
Certified Lesbian Disaster™
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Post by indrexu on May 24, 2017 22:35:05 GMT
I don't get Gaspard fans, either. He poses as Mister Big War Boy but can't win the war despite apparently holding all the cards. He poses as Too Honorable To Play The Game but plays it anyway. He talks up his warmongering plans for Orlesian expansion and signs a treaty with Ferelden. Also, he whines all the time, like people say. Like, what is the upside here? Am I missing something? Actually, that's kind of a thing in this series, because I don't get Loghain's fanbase either. Both of those guys are allegedly hypercompetent military leaders, but neither of them actually demonstrates it. It's all tell, no show, which to me says "these guys are actually punks and the writers want us to know this" but apparently it doesn't say that to a lot of other people. I mean, history is kind of my thing. I know what a hypercompetent medieval military leader looks like. I know that fictional writers often have difficulty portraying such a character, but even if you account for that neither Loghain nor Gaspard looks like anything special. (Can you tell I loved Isabela's romance?) Izzy running off right before "Demands of the Qun" - the first time I ever played through it, with no idea what to expect - made me cry. Like, outright bawling. I was completely inconsolable. Izzy coming back at the end of "Demands of the Qun" is the happiest thing that's ever happened to me in a video game.
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mrslothy
The Beastmaster
Elcor in the Fade
Posts: 639
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Post by mrslothy on May 24, 2017 22:37:25 GMT
Oghren. He was mildly irritating in Origins, so I left him at camp. I was bummed that HE, of all characters, returned for Awakening and his deadbeat dad storyline was the icing on a crap cake. I also have had enough Varric, thank you. He's fine, especially in DA2. I don't necessarily dislike him, even. But he felt completely forced in Inquisition; I hope he stays in Kirkwall next game. James Vega, no thank you. Although part of that, at least, is that FemShep is forced to either be an a-hole to him OR indulge him and throw herself at him. i have no sexy gif to add, but i had to quote it to make the truth shine brighter
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 24, 2017 22:56:38 GMT
gayhawke That's so funny. Who thought putting Kylo on a birthday card was a good idea? I think it's meant to be ironic? There's a lot of Father's Day merch for Vader. I got my dad a mug, lol.
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Foelhe
Grizzled Warrior
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Post by Foelhe on May 24, 2017 23:01:06 GMT
I don't get Gaspard fans, either. He poses as Mister Big War Boy but can't win the war despite apparently holding all the cards. He poses as Too Honorable To Play The Game but plays it anyway. He talks up his warmongering plans for Orlesian expansion and signs a treaty with Ferelden. Also, he whines all the time, like people say. Like, what is the upside here? Am I missing something? Actually, that's kind of a thing in this series, because I don't get Loghain's fanbase either. Both of those guys are allegedly hypercompetent military leaders, but neither of them actually demonstrates it. It's all tell, no show, which to me says "these guys are actually punks and the writers want us to know this" but apparently it doesn't say that to a lot of other people. I mean, history is kind of my thing. I know what a hypercompetent medieval military leader looks like. I know that fictional writers often have difficulty portraying such a character, but even if you account for that neither Loghain nor Gaspard looks like anything special. BioWare hamstrings themselves in a lot of ways, mostly because they work so hard to keep the PC in the driver seat that it hurts the lore sometimes. Gaspard pulling off a military coup would be interesting, but that would mean the Inquisitor doesn't get to make all the important decisions, so instead he gets reduced to a choice from a list of options, which immediately makes him a terrible choice because he's only pulling a draw in what should be his strongest area of expertise. That's one of the reasons DA2 is still my favorite Dragon Age game - the people in Kirkwall felt like they had a legitimate say in things, instead of being nameless spear carriers waiting for the PC to pass orders down. I have no idea why Loghain doesn't do anything impressive, though. Guess the writers just didn't feel like they had time for it?
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 24, 2017 23:14:13 GMT
On topic with the thread now, lol: Loghain - Look, if he's not a traitor, then he's incompetent. I don't care what Gaider thinks, these are the only options that make any fucking sense. Anora - I think people have a tendency to blindly take her at her own word that she is a strong, smart, independent woman that does good the politics. There is actually no evidence for this claim, and in fact, from what little we see of her, she only makes BAD choices. Like, I'm supposed to believe that a woman who cowed to the whims of her clearly unhinged father, and willfully blundered into an obvious trap should be the ruler of the country? She SAYS she's the "brains behind Cailan". So fucking what? What good decisions did Cailan make that Anora can take credit for? At a REAL job interview, you can't just scream "ME SMART! ME SMART!" over and over again, you need to provide examples. Alistair may be untested, but I know that he is a capable fighter, and a self-sacrificing individual who cares about the wellbeing of the common people. All I know about Anora is that she REALLY REALLY WANTS TO BE QUEEN, U GAIZ. Elthina - Any one who thinks Elthina was a "neutral party" who cared about both sides is an idiot and probably a Trump voter. Elthina's "neutrality" consists entirely of allowing Meredith to grab more and more power, while telling Orsino to shut up everytime he makes a legitimate complaint. Also she waa a blithering twit who couldn't keep control of her own subordinates Anders was 100% right to blow up the Chantry, but I disagree with his reasoning. It shouldn't be done to "bring things to a head", it should be done because the Chantry system as a whole ought to be abolished, and Elthina in particular deserves death.
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indrexu
Grizzled Warrior
Certified Lesbian Disaster™
Posts: 62
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Post by indrexu on May 24, 2017 23:15:27 GMT
BioWare hamstrings themselves in a lot of ways, mostly because they work so hard to keep the PC in the driver seat that it hurts the lore sometimes. Gaspard pulling off a military coup would be interesting, but that would mean the Inquisitor doesn't get to make all the important decisions, so instead he gets reduced to a choice from a list of options, which immediately makes him a terrible choice because he's only pulling a draw in what should be his strongest area of expertise. That's one of the reasons DA2 is still my favorite Dragon Age game - the people in Kirkwall felt like they had a legitimate say in things, instead of being nameless spear carriers waiting for the PC to pass orders down. I have no idea why Loghain doesn't do anything impressive, though. Guess the writers just didn't feel like they had time for it? I dunno, Gaspard doesn't even appear to be all that great in Masked Empire, which didn't operate under the same restrictions as the game. Like, you could say the same about Celene: she's under the same constraints as Gaspard insofar as Orlais still "has to" be able to stay together and not collapse even with Gaspard instead of her in charge. And despite ostensibly being a great and cunning player of the Game she has much more high-profile screwups than almost anybody else. Yet screwing up while trying at least makes her seem like she's doing something. Gaspard is kind of just sitting there waffling around. Moreover, while Celene at least acts like a political strategist, Gaspard just whines and acts like a prick. He doesn't act like a great military leader, and he doesn't do what a great military leader might do. The Loghain thing was partially hampered by the utterly nonsensical way that the Origins writers decided to plot out the Battle of Ostagar, and got even further muddled when they decided to go back and start retconning the backstory with Return to Ostagar. Now, don't get me wrong. Both Gaspard and Loghain are quite believable as soldiers and war leaders. It's just that they're not particularly good at their jobs. There's nothing about what they do that makes them seem capable. Scan a few pages of Michael Attaleiates, Leon the Deacon, or Niketas Choniates: you'll find plenty of generals who were serviceable at best, and you'll find plenty of generals who were kind of bad, and a few who were outright catastrophes. I just don't get why dudes like that get fanbases. Shit, Loghain's fanbase is mostly due, in my opinion, to the fact that he tells Cailan "we must attend to reality" before Ostagar - despite the fact that literally nothing else he says or does has anything to do with hard-nosed soldiering.
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
Wanted Apostate
Posts: 827
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Post by Catilina on May 24, 2017 23:24:35 GMT
On topic with the thread now, lol: Loghain - Look, if he's not a traitor, then he's incompetent. I don't care what Gaider thinks, these are the only options that make any fucking sense. Anora - I think people have a tendency to blindly take her at her own word that she is a strong, smart, independent woman that does good the politics. There is actually no evidence for this claim, and in fact, from what little we see of her, she only makes BAD choices. Like, I'm supposed to believe that a woman who cowed to the whims of her clearly unhinged father, and willfully blundered into an obvious trap should be the ruler of the country? She SAYS she's the "brains behind Cailan". So fucking what? What good decisions did Cailan make that Anora can take credit for? At a REAL job interview, you can't just scream "ME SMART! ME SMART!" over and over again, you need to provide examples. Alistair may be untested, but I know that he is a capable fighter, and a self-sacrificing individual who cares about the wellbeing of the common people. All I know about Anora is that she REALLY REALLY WANTS TO BE QUEEN, U GAIZ. Elthina - Any one who thinks Elthina was a "neutral party" who cared about both sides is an idiot and probably a Trump voter. Elthina's "neutrality" consists entirely of allowing Meredith to grab more and more power, while telling Orsino to shut up everytime he makes a legitimate complaint. Also she waa a blithering twit who couldn't keep control of her own subordinates Anders was 100% right to blow up the Chantry, but I disagree with his reasoning. It shouldn't be done to "bring things to a head", it should be done because the Chantry system as a whole ought to be abolished, and Elthina in particular deserves death. Huh! Someone who more radical than me, in this issues!
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 24, 2017 23:28:16 GMT
Oh good, we're talking about Celene. She is sooooooo fucking STUPID. It's Anora all over again. I'm expected to believe that she has ALL THE POLITICAL ACUMEN because LORE SAYS SO!!1, but in The Masked Empire, she let Gaspard goad her into making reprehensible decisions that DON'T EVEN WORK OUT IN HER FAVOUR. And in Inquisition she takes no initiative whatsoever to solve the problems SHE CAUSED, or even just prevent her own fucking assassination. BioWare built up Celene and the "Great Game" so fucking much, but when it finally comes time to show and not tell, it becomes really obvious that they don't possess even a basic understanding of politics.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 24, 2017 23:30:42 GMT
I'm ready to start the drama of the week: I don't like Alistair. Almost never make him King and think Divine!Leliana should assassinate King Alistairs.
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indrexu
Grizzled Warrior
Certified Lesbian Disaster™
Posts: 62
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Post by indrexu on May 24, 2017 23:34:40 GMT
I, uh, thought this thread was about not understanding fanbases, not about bashing characters.
Like, I think that Celene is mostly an incompetent politician as depicted in the games, but I can see why she might have a gay fanbase, and the bizarre Anglo-American monarchists might be all SHE IS THE LEGITIMATE RULER in her favor. I can understand that shit. And I can understand people liking Alistair because he is str8b8 and goofy-funny even if some of the other stuff about him is questionable.
But I legit can't understand Gaspard and Loghain fans because the only real source of their appeal to anybody is horribly botched.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 24, 2017 23:36:13 GMT
I mean, it's fine to think Alistair isn't suited to the job, but I don't see what he's done to warrant assassination at the orders of a close friend.
But if I had my way, there wouldn't BE a Divine. I like Leliana, but if it was an option, I would destroy the religious system she believes in so strongly without a second thought, lol.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 24, 2017 23:38:36 GMT
I, uh, thought this thread was about not understanding fanbases, not about bashing characters. Like, I think that Celene is mostly an incompetent politician as depicted in the games, but I can see why she might have a gay fanbase, and the bizarre Anglo-American monarchists might be all SHE IS THE LEGITIMATE RULER in her favor. I can understand that shit. And I can understand people liking Alistair because he is str8b8 and goofy-funny even if some of the other stuff about him is questionable. But I legit can't understand Gaspard and Loghain fans because the only real source of their appeal to anybody is horribly botched. I don't see how we can avoid bashing characters, honestly.
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Post by toomanyclouds on May 24, 2017 23:39:07 GMT
BioWare hamstrings themselves in a lot of ways, mostly because they work so hard to keep the PC in the driver seat that it hurts the lore sometimes. Gaspard pulling off a military coup would be interesting, but that would mean the Inquisitor doesn't get to make all the important decisions, so instead he gets reduced to a choice from a list of options, which immediately makes him a terrible choice because he's only pulling a draw in what should be his strongest area of expertise. That's one of the reasons DA2 is still my favorite Dragon Age game - the people in Kirkwall felt like they had a legitimate say in things, instead of being nameless spear carriers waiting for the PC to pass orders down. I have no idea why Loghain doesn't do anything impressive, though. Guess the writers just didn't feel like they had time for it? I dunno, Gaspard doesn't even appear to be all that great in Masked Empire, which didn't operate under the same restrictions as the game. Like, you could say the same about Celene: she's under the same constraints as Gaspard insofar as Orlais still "has to" be able to stay together and not collapse even with Gaspard instead of her in charge. And despite ostensibly being a great and cunning player of the Game she has much more high-profile screwups than almost anybody else. Yet screwing up while trying at least makes her seem like she's doing something. Gaspard is kind of just sitting there waffling around. Moreover, while Celene at least acts like a political strategist, Gaspard just whines and acts like a prick. He doesn't act like a great military leader, and he doesn't do what a great military leader might do. The Loghain thing was partially hampered by the utterly nonsensical way that the Origins writers decided to plot out the Battle of Ostagar, and got even further muddled when they decided to go back and start retconning the backstory with Return to Ostagar. Now, don't get me wrong. Both Gaspard and Loghain are quite believable as soldiers and war leaders. It's just that they're not particularly good at their jobs. There's nothing about what they do that makes them seem capable. Scan a few pages of Michael Attaleiates, Leon the Deacon, or Niketas Choniates: you'll find plenty of generals who were serviceable at best, and you'll find plenty of generals who were kind of bad, and a few who were outright catastrophes. I just don't get why dudes like that get fanbases. Shit, Loghain's fanbase is mostly due, in my opinion, to the fact that he tells Cailan "we must attend to reality" before Ostagar - despite the fact that literally nothing else he says or does has anything to do with hard-nosed soldiering. Not that I don't technically agree, being a medieval nerd myself, but I think you're holding this stuff up to a standard it just won't reach for a while. Bioware writes really good video games, but I wouldn't exactly put their work up against the greats of other media yet (which is understandable, it's a young medium, after all). And as you alluded to, there's like 10 different writers pulling at these characters in tie-in materials, follow-up games, DLC, etc. Then, unlike with a coherent story, they have to write with people in mind who have read everything and then those who don't... the quality of character consistency is just bound to vary. I think Loghain is liked more for the idea of who he is than all of his actions accumulated. The one thing that is still sometimes discussed even in DA:I among the characters is the question of whether it was right, knowing what he knew, to pull his soldiers out of that particular battle at Ostagar. That's kind of the watershed moment that I think a lot of people remember. Stolen Throne or whatever that book was called probably isn't, and some people even take the stance that things that don't appear in the main games are not "real canon", which leaves you with characters that have weirdly flexible histories and personalities as a result. It's kind of unfortunate, I do wish that would get better.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 24, 2017 23:39:54 GMT
I, uh, thought this thread was about not understanding fanbases, not about bashing characters.Like, I think that Celene is mostly an incompetent politician as depicted in the games, but I can see why she might have a gay fanbase, and the bizarre Anglo-American monarchists might be all SHE IS THE LEGITIMATE RULER in her favor. I can understand that shit. And I can understand people liking Alistair because he is str8b8 and goofy-funny even if some of the other stuff about him is questionable. But I legit can't understand Gaspard and Loghain fans because the only real source of their appeal to anybody is horribly botched. I said this isn't to bash the fans. Bashing the characters is fine.
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indrexu
Grizzled Warrior
Certified Lesbian Disaster™
Posts: 62
Likes: 222
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Post by indrexu on May 24, 2017 23:43:05 GMT
I don't see how we can avoid bashing characters, honestly. I think it's about emphasis. Like, there are loads of characters in the DA games that I don't like, and would be happy to bash at the first opportunity. But when I read the OP - and I may have gotten the wrong impression - this thread was for the characters that are just a giant question mark, like how could you possibly like this. Which is why I went with Gaspard and Loghain: their sole apparent redeeming quality is being competent military leaders, but they're never shown to be competent, so why do they have fans? They obviously do have fans, as cBSN shows. But, like, whyyyyy. It doesn't make any sense to me.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 24, 2017 23:44:40 GMT
I, uh, thought this thread was about not understanding fanbases, not about bashing characters.Like, I think that Celene is mostly an incompetent politician as depicted in the games, but I can see why she might have a gay fanbase, and the bizarre Anglo-American monarchists might be all SHE IS THE LEGITIMATE RULER in her favor. I can understand that shit. And I can understand people liking Alistair because he is str8b8 and goofy-funny even if some of the other stuff about him is questionable. But I legit can't understand Gaspard and Loghain fans because the only real source of their appeal to anybody is horribly botched. I said this isn't to bash the fans. Bashing the characters is fine. Yaaaaaaaay! Sebastian is a dullwad and I would stab him in the crotchface if it was an option. I used to like Isabela but the comics ruined her. I still wouldn't give her to the Qunari, because fuck them and their stupid book, but I would kill her if it was an option. And speaking of the Qunari, the fact that they have any fans is baffling to me. I don't know where to even begin unpacking it all. "You know what? I like your thinking! Sign me up for chemical mind rape and also regular rape!"
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gayhawke
Grizzled Warrior
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Post by gayhawke on May 24, 2017 23:45:37 GMT
I would have found Loghain an interesting character if he hadn't, y'know, sold people into slavery. He was a sympathetic character in A Stolen Throne but slavery is a moral event horizon for me.
I'm also not really a fan of Anora, lol. I always make Alistair King.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 24, 2017 23:46:43 GMT
I don't see how we can avoid bashing characters, honestly. I think it's about emphasis. Like, there are loads of characters in the DA games that I don't like, and would be happy to bash at the first opportunity. But when I read the OP - and I may have gotten the wrong impression - this thread was for the characters that are just a giant question mark, like how could you possibly like this. Which is why I went with Gaspard and Loghain: their sole apparent redeeming quality is being competent military leaders, but they're never shown to be competent, so why do they have fans? They obviously do have fans, as cBSN shows. But, like, whyyyyy. It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think bashing characters is necessarily a bad thing in of themselves. They're not real, after all. Sometimes the reasons for it are shit, but -shrug- The reason I emphasized "no bashing" (specifically in regards to fans) is that I've noticed people take it way too far and make judgment calls on how everyone who likes character A is awful and blah blah blah. We don't need that shit. Besides, I'd love some explanations as to why people love Alistair. I don't always agree with everyone, but I still like hearing different POVs.
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Ark
The Beastmaster
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Post by Ark on May 24, 2017 23:49:53 GMT
I said this isn't to bash the fans. Bashing the characters is fine. Yaaaaaaaay! Sebastian is a dullwad and I would stab him in the crotchface if it was an option. I used to like Isabela but the comics ruined her. I still wouldn't give her to the Qunari, because fuck them and their stupid book, but I would kill her if it was an option. And speaking of the Qunari, the fact that they have any fans is baffling to me. I don't know where to even begin unpacking it all. "You know what? I like your thinking! Sign me up for chemical mind rape and also regular rape!" I like to think of Qunari as potential Tal Vashoth. Sexy sexy potential Tal Vashoth. The "true" Qunari can go eat a dick. Take pictures!
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