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Post by pessimistpanda on May 26, 2017 22:19:41 GMT
Sorry, but what kind of complete moron joins the Templars to "protect mages"? It's blatantly obvious that they are not about that at all, lol.
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 22:31:50 GMT
Sorry, but what kind of complete moron joins the Templars to "protect mages"? It's blatantly obvious that they are not about that at all, lol. Obvious to you, and me but not obvious to a simple commoner. Chantry propaganda. |
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firmicute
The Beastmaster
them please, if you can be bothered :3
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Post by firmicute on May 27, 2017 0:33:45 GMT
oh and on topic: Blackwall.. For whatever reason his loyalty quest never triggered for me despite approval high enough.. So hes just really bland. A lying bland person whos a warrior..Really boring. I dont really get why orison has fans either... Sorry, he was a bit of a fuckup too and you dont.. become a fucking harvester without extensive arcane knowledge, so that mean he must have known a bit more blood magic.. I think BW fucked that up, but they painted the templars as such complete monsters with exception of thrask maybe, that they had to build the other side as equally fucked up- so you have this necro-woman-murderer and blood mages becoming abominations everywhere more bloodmages and even more.. I like merril, shes cute but shes also a really stupid dumbass.. Yes , of course, play with a tainted elven thing you dont even know how to use, because that never went wrong and because that thing didn't already kill at least two people. Not the Templars are the monsters (not every Templars), the system is monstrous, and the Templars serve this wrong system. So they are simple Dark Knights. Therefore, I can not support them. But they are the Chantry's (the Seekers'?) victims too, but not really innocent victims, most of them chose his own fate, and stay in the Order. Some of them could preserve their spine, some of them failed. well.. I dont think that one guy that made pretty clear he would even brand mages so he can "use them" better because the tranquil are like children who dont fight back and he likes how she looks and its pretty obvious what he wants to do.. anders very indirectly alluded also to being victim of assault and nobody forced them to starve cole to death, right? yeah, sure a system that forces you to jail people for who they are(yes, potentially dangerous) is one thing but imo they lacked that nuance in DA2, they painted those as perpetrators, harassers, as sadists who like to use threat of tranquility to abuse mages make them hold still. and nobody is forced to become a templar, right? But with everything... people who like to wield power are often those who shouldn't have,3 but are also most those who do the jobs that grant them power-.. thats why such systems should have some sort of control mechanism that independent of both... because the "one hand washes the other" becomes more important if its between people who are dependent on another,,, you dont piss off the person having your back against a mad abomination. |
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
Wanted Apostate
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Post by Catilina on May 27, 2017 1:13:42 GMT
Not the Templars are the monsters (not every Templars), the system is monstrous, and the Templars serve this wrong system. So they are simple Dark Knights. Therefore, I can not support them. But they are the Chantry's (the Seekers'?) victims too, but not really innocent victims, most of them chose his own fate, and stay in the Order. Some of them could preserve their spine, some of them failed. well.. I dont think that one guy that made pretty clear he would even brand mages so he can "use them" better because the tranquil are like children who dont fight back and he likes how she looks and its pretty obvious what he wants to do.. anders very indirectly alluded also to being victim of assault and nobody forced them to starve cole to death, right? yeah, sure a system that forces you to jail people for who they are(yes, potentially dangerous) is one thing but imo they lacked that nuance in DA2, they painted those as perpetrators, harassers, as sadists who like to use threat of tranquility to abuse mages make them hold still. and nobody is forced to become a templar, right? But with everything... people who like to wield power are often those who shouldn't have,3 but are also most those who do the jobs that grant them power-.. thats why such systems should have some sort of control mechanism that independent of both... because the "one hand washes the other" becomes more important if its between people who are dependent on another,,, you dont piss off the person having your back against a mad abomination. Yes, this is dark, as hell. But how you can paint a dark/evil system as gray? This seems impossible. Those bad guys (Alric, Meredith, Karrass etc.) are the parts of the system. The Chantry needed "good Templars", what's sometimes in many Circles means –I suppose– fanatic of paranoid or cruel enough for dominate over mages from Divine right (cited Cullen). So: according to some aspects the psychopath Alric, the paranoid Meredith were the ideal Templars. You can say, that these are extreme, isolated cases, but I suppose not. Elthina did not really approves their methods, but with a pitiful shrug ... she did nothing. So the method was acceptable according the Chantry, and these people were acceptable as Templar (Meredith became Knight Commander). So: if these people can be honored Templars, then the whole system is dark: there are no gray nuance in it. But good Templars exist: Trask, Ser Maurevar Carver, Keran ... etc. We saw them. And don't forget: Trask murdered by a mad blood mage, whom he protected... This is the other side. I think we saw enough mad mages. Quentin for example... Danarius If you think that the Templars were too dark-painted, despite that you saw the evil/mad mages, and good Templars, then this is because the system is really unacceptable. I suppose, they tried to paint gray shades, but failed. The oppression can not define as gray morale. |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 27, 2017 1:46:43 GMT
Sorry, but what kind of complete moron joins the Templars to "protect mages"? It's blatantly obvious that they are not about that at all, lol. Obvious to you, and me but not obvious to a simple commoner. Chantry propaganda. This brings up an interesting detail I'd like to see them explore. When you have two powers locked in major conflict (like Tevinter and the Qunari), especially in countries that are authoritarian and oppressive, there's gonna be a ton of propaganda to turn the populace's attention on the enemy and away from domestic concerns. I hope they do something with that in DA4. |
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Post by hellionrex on May 27, 2017 2:45:12 GMT
哎呀。Are we resurrecting this old debate?
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 3:06:55 GMT
Obvious to you, and me but not obvious to a simple commoner. Chantry propaganda. This brings up an interesting detail I'd like to see them explore. When you have two powers locked in major conflict (like Tevinter and the Qunari), especially in countries that are authoritarian and oppressive, there's gonna be a ton of propaganda to turn the populace's attention on the enemy and away from domestic concerns. I hope they do something with that in DA4. Tevinter doesn't really need to put out much propaganda. It is a fact that the Qunari want to spread the Qun and "correct" the rest of the world. DAO's Sten admits this. DA2's Arishok admits this. Iron Bull admits this. It's only a matter of time before they decide to make a serious effort in it, as they did in the past, and indeed the Trespasser epilogue suggests that the time has come. There are refuges who fled to Minrathous as a result of the conflict. I don't think the higher-ups in Tevinter need to do much convincing. |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 27, 2017 3:25:43 GMT
This brings up an interesting detail I'd like to see them explore. When you have two powers locked in major conflict (like Tevinter and the Qunari), especially in countries that are authoritarian and oppressive, there's gonna be a ton of propaganda to turn the populace's attention on the enemy and away from domestic concerns. I hope they do something with that in DA4. Tevinter doesn't really need to put out much propaganda. It is a fact that the Qunari want to spread the Qun and "correct" the rest of the world. DAO's Sten admits this. DA2's Arishok admits this. Iron Bull admits this. It's only a matter of time before they decide to make a serious effort in it, as they did in the past, and indeed the Trespasser epilogue suggests that the time has come. There are refuges who fled to Minrathous as a result of the conflict. I don't think the higher-ups in Tevinter need to do much convincing. Eh, there was even anti-Nazi propaganda during WWII despite the Nazis committing horrific acts as well as trying to take over other countries. Propaganda isn't just created when the public is fine with some group and need to be convinced to hate them; it can be created to distract, humiliate, reinforce, act as call-to-action. |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 3:28:55 GMT
Tevinter doesn't really need to put out much propaganda. It is a fact that the Qunari want to spread the Qun and "correct" the rest of the world. DAO's Sten admits this. DA2's Arishok admits this. Iron Bull admits this. It's only a matter of time before they decide to make a serious effort in it, as they did in the past, and indeed the Trespasser epilogue suggests that the time has come. There are refuges who fled to Minrathous as a result of the conflict. I don't think the higher-ups in Tevinter need to do much convincing. Eh, there was even anti-Nazi propaganda during WWII despite the Nazis committing horrific acts as well as trying to take over other countries. Propaganda isn't just created when the public is fine with some group and need to be convinced to hate them; it can be created to distract, humiliate, reinforce, act as call-to-action. Good point! I do wonder how much of the Tevinter martial forces are made of up slaves, versus free citizens. Krem was a free citizen, after all, when he was in the army for that brief time. |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 27, 2017 5:23:24 GMT
Eh, there was even anti-Nazi propaganda during WWII despite the Nazis committing horrific acts as well as trying to take over other countries. Propaganda isn't just created when the public is fine with some group and need to be convinced to hate them; it can be created to distract, humiliate, reinforce, act as call-to-action. Good point! I do wonder how much of the Tevinter martial forces are made of up slaves, versus free citizens. Krem was a free citizen, after all, when he was in the army for that brief time. There may be some slaves that are soldiers. We know for certain that some are skilled in combat (Fenris, Marius). I'm trying to remember whether or not they were intentionally trained for combat or whether they learned it on their own. I just realized I've veered us all off-topic. Sorry, everybody! To keep the thread going, I gotta say Tamlen. I don't hate him, but there wasn't much there. |
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c_cat
Dashing Rogue
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Post by c_cat on May 27, 2017 5:54:21 GMT
The children given to the chantry, like Alistair, don't have a choice. So some of them actually are forced.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 11:07:01 GMT
Good point! I do wonder how much of the Tevinter martial forces are made of up slaves, versus free citizens. Krem was a free citizen, after all, when he was in the army for that brief time. There may be some slaves that are soldiers. We know for certain that some are skilled in combat (Fenris, Marius). I'm trying to remember whether or not they were intentionally trained for combat or whether they learned it on their own. I just realized I've veered us all off-topic. Sorry, everybody! To keep the thread going, I gotta say Tamlen. I don't hate him, but there wasn't much there. Tamlen, to me, is like Gorim and DAO Cullen before he reappeared in the other games. Very minor content with just enough there that headcanoning a deeper relationship with the PC is possible without being contradictory. Which is part of the benefit of the media of video games, we can use them as a springboard to fill out the game world in our minds. What's annoying is when people take those really minor characters and manage to make them their OTP and go on the offensive if others don't care. It comes across as those people self inserting into their PC or idealising the hypothetical romance much further than what the game intended. |
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2017 3:50:34 GMT
Good point! I do wonder how much of the Tevinter martial forces are made of up slaves, versus free citizens. Krem was a free citizen, after all, when he was in the army for that brief time. There may be some slaves that are soldiers. We know for certain that some are skilled in combat (Fenris, Marius). I'm trying to remember whether or not they were intentionally trained for combat or whether they learned it on their own. I just realized I've veered us all off-topic. Sorry, everybody! To keep the thread going, I gotta say Tamlen. I don't hate him, but there wasn't much there.  I legit cried when Tamlen showed up at camp that one time  |
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Post by phantomrachie on May 29, 2017 7:47:21 GMT
Here is a big one that I might get yelled at for but... Anders. I don't get why people like him in DA:O Awakening where he is a sarcastic asshole and in DA2 he is a tortured asshole. Although I do know that some people find the whole tortured thing sexy, he is still an asshole.
And I'm not even talking about him blowing up the Chantry without telling Hawke because I understand why he didn't tell her about it but the fact that he clearly did not give one shite about what would happen to the Mages after he did it.
The entire Circle of Rivain, most of the Circle of Kirkwall and 100's of others were murdered because of what he did and he knew that was going to happen because the Templars as an order use violence to solve nearly all of their problems and he didn't even give the Mages a heads up, or put anything in place to help the Mages once Elthina was dead.
He knows all about the abuses that happen in the Chantry, he has suffered through those abuses and yet he is willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent Mages for his revenge. He is no better than a Templar.
Also just started another run of DA:I so I'm going to harp on Cullen again for a moment. Got to the bit where he is excusing the Templars leaving the Chantry because the Chantry has taken them for granted and I just wanted to slap him in the face. Divine Justina starts seriously looking into the grievances of the Mages instead of ignoring them as per usual and the Templars close ranks & throw a hissy fit.
If anything the events post DA2 & Pre DA:I just confirms the serious lack of oversight the Chantry had over the Templars and Seekers. The Chantry were clearly never really in control of them so this rebellion because of a slight was inevitable.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2017 8:06:35 GMT
phantomrachie I think Anders and Solas are similar for the reasons people like them. Yes, there is the tragic element of it all, which appeals to some people. But there are also those who don't do the romance (or at least don't have it as their canon, even if they have played it), and who may not like Anders as a person, but who think he is a compelling character. I am one of those. Anders has a very large goal. Far beyond the immediate needs of the mages in Kirkwall, it extends to all mages under Chantry rule. He doesn't matter. The individual mages in Kirkwall don't matter. If you are a fem Hawke in a romance with him, he talks about the future possibility of having children and not having to worry that they will be taken away. His vision is toward the horizon, in envisioning a better place for all mages, and all future mages that aren't even born. As much as I disagree with his methods, I do think it was the only way. The Chantry had to be forced, and violence was the only way. I think it was one of the most real things Dragon Age has ever done. Both Anders and Justice were my Warden's friends. She would be very sad to learn what happened to them both. Neither of them exist anymore, not really as the same person they were.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 29, 2017 8:23:16 GMT
I most definitely dispute the notion that Anders is responsible for murders committed by Templars Even if he "knew" that they would react by committing genocide, that doesn't shift the blame. People are responsible for their own actions, "he hit me first" isn't an excuse. Besides which, Anders didn't start a war. No one person has that capability, no matter how many chantries they blow up. The Rivain circle was annulled because it rebelled, and it bears the responsibility for it's own rebellion. And we see in Asunder that, even after a full year, open warfare is only declared after many other stupid decisions made by people who are many times more important than Anders or anyone else in DA2. Also, this whole argument that "Of COURSE the violent actions of an individual would provoke a genocidal war" is really dangerous, irrational thinking. BioWare explicitly paints this argument as the ravings of a woman driven mad by red lyrium, and for some reason people STILL find it perfectly sound. Probably because it's the exact same argument that RL politicians have used to justify ending hundreds of civilian lives in this past decade. And finally, we know that the Circle system is inherently abusive, and easily exploited by the corrupt. Templars murder children. We know that they torture and commit sexual abuse. We know that many mages die in the Harrowing, and that circles have been annulled before for flimsier reasons. Maybe the blame for all the wartime deaths can be laid at Anders' feet, but then he also gets credit for the living mages who would have died under the status quo, and no amount of blood spilled in three years of war could come even close to the flood of gore stemming from a thousand years of Circle slavery. So as far as I'm concerned, it all comes out in the wash.  |
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Post by phantomrachie on May 29, 2017 9:36:38 GMT
@nightscrawl I agree that the Chantry had to be forced. I even agree that what he did was a good way of forcing them. My issue with Anders is that he was so focused on the big picture and of making a big statement that he abandoned other mages to deal with the consequences of his actions. He had been hiding in Kirkwall for years, there is an underground railroad for mages who wanted to escape Kirkwall, the least he could've done was put a plan in place to get mages out of Kirkwall. As an aside, I really liked Justice and was saddened by what happened to him in DA2. It was a really nice character arch though. pessimistpanda I'm not saying that he is responsible for murders committed by Templars but that given the fact that the Templars are really found of murdering mages for any reason, them freaking out and killing people was an inevitable consequence of his actions in this particular circumstance. I'm not saying that is always the inevitable consequence of one person's violence because that is crazy BUT in this circumstance, considering most of the Templars are murder junkies, I can't see anything else happening and he doesn't seem to care. The Templar's are religious fanatics barely controlled by their overlords addicting them to drugs and most of their leadership is some variety of crazy. We're not talking about a rational group, whenever they have a problem Mage their only solution is murder. Anders knows this, he has experienced his (A Templar wanted to kill him in DA:O Awakening for running away too much), he lives under the rain of the craziest Templar in Thedas and still, he made no plan or provision for the Mages he knew would be blamed for his actions. Seems like a dick move to me. In all honesty, the Mage Rebellion and the splintering of the Templars from the Chantry was going to happen eventually regardless of what Anders did. And I don't even think he was wrong, there can be no middle ground in a situation like the one the Mages & Templars were in. I just think that it was dick move not to care about those left to deal with what he started. |
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Post by jjdxb on May 29, 2017 10:11:58 GMT
Cullen. I didn't really find his character arc in DA:I very compelling
Solas. I think everyone has said their piece on him
Loghain, Gaspard, for reasons already said.
Oh, and Samson. Like, why are there so many Samson/Cullen shippers on AO3? What about this pairing and Samson at all makes any compelling sense?
Dorian and Bull, but more so the fans of their romance. Their romance with each other is clearly better, enough that it ruins any player romance with them.
Anders, Fenris for being insufferable
Merrill. I like her, but I don't get why so many people really like her.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2017 10:47:36 GMT
Cullen. I didn't really find his character arc in DA:I very compelling Solas. I think everyone has said their piece on him Loghain, Gaspard, for reasons already said. Oh, and Samson. Like, why are there so many Samson/Cullen shippers on AO3? What about this pairing and Samson at all makes any compelling sense? Dorian and Bull, but more so the fans of their romance. Their romance with each other is clearly better, enough that it ruins any player romance with them.Anders, Fenris for being insufferable Merrill. I like her, but I don't get why so many people really like her. That's not some objective truth, you know. I don't get the Cullen/Samson shippers, either. Then again, there are also Anders/Fenris shippers, and that even has a name: Fenders. Someone even asked David Gaider about it lol! I guess people just like the idea of hate fucking? I don't know how much of this is an actual ship, but there is also Alistair/Morrigan, which I also think is dumb. Both loathe each other, and Alistair even refers to Morrigan as a bitch in one dialogue. I don't get any of these. |
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Post by jjdxb on May 29, 2017 10:57:50 GMT
Cullen. I didn't really find his character arc in DA:I very compelling Solas. I think everyone has said their piece on him Loghain, Gaspard, for reasons already said. Oh, and Samson. Like, why are there so many Samson/Cullen shippers on AO3? What about this pairing and Samson at all makes any compelling sense? Dorian and Bull, but more so the fans of their romance. Their romance with each other is clearly better, enough that it ruins any player romance with them.Anders, Fenris for being insufferable Merrill. I like her, but I don't get why so many people really like her. That's not some objective truth, you know. I don't get the Cullen/Samson shippers, either. Then again, there are also Anders/Fenris shippers, and that even has a name: Fenders. Someone even asked David Gaider about it lol! I guess people just like the idea of hate fucking? I don't know how much of this is an actual ship, but there is also Alistair/Morrigan, which I also think is dumb. Both loathe each other, and Alistair even refers to Morrigan as a bitch in one dialogue. I don't get any of these. You're right, it's not objectively true. I do know, however, that Iron Bull and Dorian are more "together" after trespasser than either of them are with the Inky, so ... |
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Much love right back at ya!
