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Post by Andrew Mancer on May 23, 2017 20:49:09 GMT
I've been really lucky with the Mass Effect games giving me the types of romances I want. I'm very happy with Kaidan, Gil, and Reyes. I haven't done the Steve romance (can't leave Kaidan!), but I enjoy his character and I'm sure I'll enjoy the romance if I ever choose to save Ashley.  The Dragon Age games, on the other hand...I don't trust them. Sure, they might be more "progressive and equal" with everyone having options in the squad...but I don't think being a squadmate guarantees a good character/romance. In each game...the guy I would have wanted ended up being straight. Origins? Oh, you want to romance your fellow warden and plot relevant prince/KISA? Too bad. He's straight. Have the rogue elf instead who prefers women! DA2? You want a shot at the Chantry Brother and heir to the Starkhaven throne? No, not for you. But look, everyone* else is fair game! Inquisition? Hey look, here's the Templar you've been crushing on since Origins! He was going to be for you as well, but we had to make him straight because of time constraints. But look, we have a gay companion just for you! Don't worry, he has a story you'll love! *To BioWare's credit, I really did love Anders and I love that the options are mostly equal with Anders and Isabela both being important to the plot. Still...when will I get to date a prince/KISA BioWare?! So, yeah...unless Dragon Age 4 by some miracle gives us LGBT romances that are important to the plot and don't follow the same patterns (bisexual men preferring/only mentioning women, KISA characters being straight, darker/rogue types being gay/bi), I don't really trust them with set sexualities. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Dragon Age franchise and will without a doubt purchase the next game, but I will go in expecting the guy I want/the KISA to be straight again, ugh. If BioWare had done Fallout 4, with my luck the guys I love would have been straight. It might not be the perfect system, but at least I got to enjoy beautiful romances with Paladin Danse and MacCready instead of pining over them.  I now can't play Dragon Age Origins without the gay Alistair mod and Ser Gilmore companion mod. I also used one for Cullen and Blackwall because of course all three guys I would've wanted as a male were unavailable to me in Inquisition. |
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Post by blastoandbubin on May 23, 2017 21:12:18 GMT
I am, but that's because I don't share his love of killing characters off for angst, and that he centered the personal quest of a bi character around that kind of choice (and that that choice can also off the franchise's only trans guy in the same quest) The upside is that it likely would be choice related, just as the Iron Bull one was a choice. All of the character deaths have been thrown to the player for choice at some point; they're all avoidable. Some players may not want to make whatever choice (dark ritual), or even rearrange the DA Keep import to avoid an Alistair/Hawke situation in the Fade, but the choice is there. True, and I definitely appreciate that, but I can't help but want the Virmire decisions to affect the straight characters this time around. I get tired of the expendable characters so often being lgbt with the fairy tale (or as close to fairy tale as Bioware gets) endings nearly always being reserved for the straight characters. Heck, if they managed that and finally got over their reliance on the shifty apostate trope, their fan tear moments might regain an element of surprise. |
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gayhawke
Grizzled Warrior
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Post by gayhawke on May 23, 2017 21:18:35 GMT
👀 I may have heard that DA4 will have more of a spy/secret agent feel
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 23, 2017 21:19:44 GMT
👀 I may have heard that DA4 will have more of a spy/secret agent feel Thanks for speaking to our mutual friend.  |
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Post by blastoandbubin on May 23, 2017 21:22:13 GMT
👀 I may have heard that DA4 will have more of a spy/secret agent feel I'm choosing to believe you're not teasing because this would be amazing tbh |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 1:32:47 GMT
The upside is that it likely would be choice related, just as the Iron Bull one was a choice. All of the character deaths have been thrown to the player for choice at some point; they're all avoidable. Some players may not want to make whatever choice (dark ritual), or even rearrange the DA Keep import to avoid an Alistair/Hawke situation in the Fade, but the choice is there. True, and I definitely appreciate that, but I can't help but want the Virmire decisions to affect the straight characters this time around. I get tired of the expendable characters so often being lgbt with the fairy tale (or as close to fairy tale as Bioware gets) endings nearly always being reserved for the straight characters. Heck, if they managed that and finally got over their reliance on the shifty apostate trope, their fan tear moments might regain an element of surprise. DAI's main mages counter that. Dorian is a good guy, Solas is actually a surprise (well, he was to me), Vivienne is... Vivienne and is pretty direct about her motivations. The only holdover is Morrigan. |
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Catilina
The Beastmaster
Wanted Apostate
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Post by Catilina on May 24, 2017 1:42:00 GMT
The upside is that it likely would be choice related, just as the Iron Bull one was a choice. All of the character deaths have been thrown to the player for choice at some point; they're all avoidable. Some players may not want to make whatever choice (dark ritual), or even rearrange the DA Keep import to avoid an Alistair/Hawke situation in the Fade, but the choice is there. True, and I definitely appreciate that, but I can't help but want the Virmire decisions to affect the straight characters this time around. I get tired of the expendable characters so often being lgbt with the fairy tale (or as close to fairy tale as Bioware gets) endings nearly always being reserved for the straight characters. Heck, if they managed that and finally got over their reliance on the shifty apostate trope, their fan tear moments might regain an element of surprise. Depend on, what do you think of fairy tale endings. (Okay, a throne would be nice which I could share with my gay prince charming...) |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 24, 2017 2:07:04 GMT
My fairytale ending is Divine!Leliana having her royal lover's husband Alistair murdered among many other people in her way. She marries the widowed F!Cousland, and they become tyrants.  Finally, a decade or so into their reign, a young, lone woman and her gf start a revolution to bring them down.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 2:19:10 GMT
My fairytale ending is Divine!Leliana having her royal lover's husband Alistair murdered among many other people in her way. She marries the widowed F!Cousland, and they become tyrants. Finally, a decade or so into their reign, a young, lone woman and her gf start a revolution to bring them down. I'd say a Divine Leliana with a fem Warden partner is pretty close. Divine Leliana seems better in the romance department than non-Divine. |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 24, 2017 2:47:16 GMT
One thing they should do for DA4 is give the team a pet, kind of like the dogs from DA:O and DA2. Then, reveal the pet as the shady apostate in disguise. The whole game, we cast suspicion on the mage companions... but it was Fluffy after all.
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gayhawke
Grizzled Warrior
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Post by gayhawke on May 24, 2017 2:55:32 GMT
One thing they should do for DA4 is give the team a pet, kind of like the dogs from DA:O and DA2. Then, reveal the pet as the shady apostate in disguise. The whole game, we cast suspicion on the mage companions... but it was Fluffy after all. Or we could have Tim-who-is-not-Dumat the shifty rogue. He likes silence and dragons, and is definitely not an ancient archdemon |
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Blue-Slates
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Jaal's sweat towel
God DAMN these gay space thoughts....
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Post by Blue-Slates on May 24, 2017 3:14:29 GMT
Ooh DA4 having more of a spy theme sounds interesting, but I dunno how they could pull it off without changing the gameplay a lot. Of course, I could be lending to much to the idea that we'll be stealthy and roguish all the time, sneaking about and avoiding fights. The game could very well have a spy feel but not change gameplay at all. (damn you story and gameplay segregation)
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 3:37:23 GMT
Ooh DA4 having more of a spy theme sounds interesting, but I dunno how they could pull it off without changing the gameplay a lot. Of course, I could be lending to much to the idea that we'll be stealthy and roguish all the time, sneaking about and avoiding fights. The game could very well have a spy feel but not change gameplay at all. (damn you story and gameplay segregation) James Bond is a spy but still gets in plenty of fights. I think it's more about how the non-combat portion of the game plays out, whether there is reliance on subterfuge, intelligence gathering, and so forth. Then when the shit hits the fan, you still mow people down as normal for these games. If this mainly concerns Tevinter, it will be tricky depending on the race of the PC. They could go about this in two ways: limit the PC's race (humans and dwarves would be the more privileged races in Tevinter), OR have race selection have an impact on the success of whatever it is you're doing. They could also have an elf PC attempt to blend in and and sneak around as a slave or servant, hiding in plain sight. The problem with the second method is that it can punish the player for making their race choice and elevate certain races above others for game mechanics, when they don't know there are such penalties on character creation. People complained that there wasn't much reactivity in regard to the non-humans (especially qunari and elves) for WEWH, but at the same time I think it's shitty to have a penalty be too high for race selection. To counter this, they could have it work in the opposite way with a different region of the game, say, Seheron, where the qunari and elf PC might be more accepted as willing to want to join the Qun. |
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Blue-Slates
The Beastmaster
Jaal's sweat towel
God DAMN these gay space thoughts....
Posts: 451
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Post by Blue-Slates on May 24, 2017 4:01:51 GMT
Ooh DA4 having more of a spy theme sounds interesting, but I dunno how they could pull it off without changing the gameplay a lot. Of course, I could be lending to much to the idea that we'll be stealthy and roguish all the time, sneaking about and avoiding fights. The game could very well have a spy feel but not change gameplay at all. (damn you story and gameplay segregation) James Bond is a spy but still gets in plenty of fights. I think it's more about how the non-combat portion of the game plays out, whether there is reliance on subterfuge, intelligence gathering, and so forth. Then when the shit hits the fan, you still mow people down as normal for these games. If this mainly concerns Tevinter, it will be tricky depending on the race of the PC. They could go about this in two ways: limit the PC's race (humans and dwarves would be the more privileged races in Tevinter), OR have race selection have an impact on the success of whatever it is you're doing. They could also have an elf PC attempt to blend in and and sneak around as a slave or servant, hiding in plain sight. The problem with the second method is that it can punish the player for making their race choice and elevate certain races above others for game mechanics, when they don't know there are such penalties on character creation. People complained that there wasn't much reactivity in regard to the non-humans (especially qunari and elves) for WEWH, but at the same time I think it's shitty to have a penalty be too high for race selection. To counter this, they could have it work in the opposite way with a different region of the game, say, Seheron, where the qunari and elf PC might be more accepted as willing to want to join the Qun. Yeah they could put the spy focused stuff into the non-combat bits of the game, but it'd be nice if combat also reflected the tone of the game as well but I don't expect them to overhaul anything (and I guess I don't really mind that much. I play BW games for the story, not combat) Also I like completing stealth mission without having killed anyone There is a lot of reactivity to be had with elves and qunari (there's also the fact that elves can be apprentices in Tevinter as well as slaves) and if they bring race selection back, and I hope they do, they could try to balance the negatives with positives - like you said with Seheron - or add alternate routes to missions to make each selection a viable choice. It won't be perfect, but I think even heavy negatives can be good if it fits the story, but that depends a lot on the story and the player. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 4:06:48 GMT
There is a lot of reactivity to be had with elves and qunari (there's also the fact that elves can be apprentices in Tevinter as well as slaves) and if they bring race selection back, and I hope they do, they could try to balance the negatives with positives - like you said with Seheron - or add alternate routes to missions to make each selection a viable choice. It won't be perfect, but I think even heavy negatives can be good if it fits the story, but that depends a lot on the story and the player. I'm just reluctant that one race seems like the superior choice. I say this as a person who prefers to play human. Heck, you have people who think that playing an elf is better for DAI because of how all that turned out. I don't have an interest in elf lore, so it doesn't bother me, but it is a view some have. Even though I like it now, I felt that way about fixed sexualities as well, coming off the experience of DA2. At the time (when I was frequently discussing DA2 romances, ages ago), fixed sexualities seemed like the player being penalized for their choice of gender. I still feel that way to a degree, even as my male Inquisitor and his romance with Dorian is my favorite. |
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Blue-Slates
The Beastmaster
Jaal's sweat towel
God DAMN these gay space thoughts....
Posts: 451
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Post by Blue-Slates on May 24, 2017 5:33:15 GMT
There is a lot of reactivity to be had with elves and qunari (there's also the fact that elves can be apprentices in Tevinter as well as slaves) and if they bring race selection back, and I hope they do, they could try to balance the negatives with positives - like you said with Seheron - or add alternate routes to missions to make each selection a viable choice. It won't be perfect, but I think even heavy negatives can be good if it fits the story, but that depends a lot on the story and the player. I'm just reluctant that one race seems like the superior choice. I say this as a person who prefers to play human. Heck, you have people who think that playing an elf is better for DAI because of how all that turned out. I don't have an interest in elf lore, so it doesn't bother me, but it is a view some have. Even though I like it now, I felt that way about fixed sexualities as well, coming off the experience of DA2. At the time (when I was frequently discussing DA2 romances, ages ago), fixed sexualities seemed like the player being penalized for their choice of gender. I still feel that way to a degree, even as my male Inquisitor and his romance with Dorian is my favorite. I agree, to an extent, probably. In terms of gameplay each race really should be balanced so that players don't receive heavy penalties in relation to other choices. In story, I don't know honestly, it'll depend on what they decide to do. Like with DAI, elves are more relevant because of Solas and the game featuring elven lore heavily. But a human protag was originally envisioned for DAI with race selection only being added because of the delay. So I don't know if there's a way to avoid the feeling of "you should be playing x character". Having sections of the game - like in DAO - where your characters race/background is tied could help make things more equal in that way, but again it'll depend  That isn't to say that different races should have less content, or that some races having it worse/better is bad. I think it's only bad if race selection choices result in less content for a given race, and even then I don't think having less race choices is a solution. BW needs to work on that balance so that each choice is meaningful and can tell a good story. I think with LIs it's slightly different in that barring content because a PC is male or female is easy to excuse. It's also a bit more complicated in that you can still get equal content just not with that certain character. LIs having fixed sexualities or LIs all being bi/pan have their own pros and cons, I don't know that there's a right way to do it as long as things are equal. |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 24, 2017 5:45:07 GMT
I think to some extent there should be penalties in regards to what fantasy race you choose to play as, since they usually have set backgrounds anyways. I don't think that any one race should get more content, though, just different content. Maybe there's a certain secret route you can only access because, your character not being part of the Tevinter Altus class or Dwarven Ambassadoria or enemy Qunari, you can actually be trusted by the Tevinter lower classes living in the slums. Alternatively, if you're Qunari, you get an additional option through intimidation. Or, if you're part of the Altus class or related to someone in the Ambassadoria, you get an additional path just from your character's status. Equal amount of options, just different kinds of options that suit different playstyles.
In terms of a spy/secret agent theme, maybe there's different ways to get involved in subterfuge. It doesn't have to be done in a way that makes one fantasy race get all the cool options while the others get crapola. It could just be little reactions from the narrative: slight differences in role, different sets of expertise, increases in difficulty if your character tries to do something they wouldn't be "suited" to do (deciding to attend a Tevinter elite gala pretending to be a human Altus mage instead of a servant as a non-mage elf, for example)
Then again, this is assuming that race choice is going to return. I hope it does, but I understand if it's more limited than before, since DA:I did not handle it the best with all those different factors.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 6:08:24 GMT
I think to some extent there should be penalties in regards to what fantasy race you choose to play as, since they usually have set backgrounds anyways. I don't think that any one race should get more content, though, just different content. Maybe there's a certain secret route you can only access because, your character not being part of the Tevinter Altus class or Dwarven Ambassadoria or enemy Qunari, you can actually be trusted by the Tevinter lower classes living in the slums. Alternatively, if you're Qunari, you get an additional option through intimidation. Or, if you're part of the Altus class or related to someone in the Ambassadoria, you get an additional path just from your character's status. Equal amount of options, just different kinds of options that suit different playstyles. I'd really like this sort of reactivity, actually. There needs to be some alternate ways of completing objectives that don't involve smashing faces. I normally take the stealthy path in Mark of the Assassin. I don't necessarily "like" it, but I can appreciate that it is different. |
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Post by gaycaravaggio on May 24, 2017 6:26:28 GMT
I think to some extent there should be penalties in regards to what fantasy race you choose to play as, since they usually have set backgrounds anyways. I don't think that any one race should get more content, though, just different content. Maybe there's a certain secret route you can only access because, your character not being part of the Tevinter Altus class or Dwarven Ambassadoria or enemy Qunari, you can actually be trusted by the Tevinter lower classes living in the slums. Alternatively, if you're Qunari, you get an additional option through intimidation. Or, if you're part of the Altus class or related to someone in the Ambassadoria, you get an additional path just from your character's status. Equal amount of options, just different kinds of options that suit different playstyles. I'd really like this sort of reactivity, actually. There needs to be some alternate ways of completing objectives that don't involve smashing faces. I normally take the stealthy path in Mark of the Assassin. I don't necessarily "like" it, but I can appreciate that it is different. Yeah, I guess it would take some work, though a conversation doesn't require that much assets beyond providing the voices and such. It'd be really cool to just see more options in how to accomplish quests, whether it's through stealth, persuasion, intimidation, gaining people's trust, whatever. Obviously, the combat is an important mechanic, but I agree with you that every quest doesn't need to lead to some combat. |
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Post by nocte on May 24, 2017 8:20:04 GMT
Ooh DA4 having more of a spy theme sounds interesting, but I dunno how they could pull it off without changing the gameplay a lot. Of course, I could be lending to much to the idea that we'll be stealthy and roguish all the time, sneaking about and avoiding fights. The game could very well have a spy feel but not change gameplay at all. (damn you story and gameplay segregation) James Bond is a spy but still gets in plenty of fights. I think it's more about how the non-combat portion of the game plays out, whether there is reliance on subterfuge, intelligence gathering, and so forth. Then when the shit hits the fan, you still mow people down as normal for these games. If this mainly concerns Tevinter, it will be tricky depending on the race of the PC. They could go about this in two ways: limit the PC's race (humans and dwarves would be the more privileged races in Tevinter), OR have race selection have an impact on the success of whatever it is you're doing. They could also have an elf PC attempt to blend in and and sneak around as a slave or servant, hiding in plain sight. The problem with the second method is that it can punish the player for making their race choice and elevate certain races above others for game mechanics, when they don't know there are such penalties on character creation. People complained that there wasn't much reactivity in regard to the non-humans (especially qunari and elves) for WEWH, but at the same time I think it's shitty to have a penalty be too high for race selection. To counter this, they could have it work in the opposite way with a different region of the game, say, Seheron, where the qunari and elf PC might be more accepted as willing to want to join the Qun. I think an elf mage would actually be more privileged than a dwarf in Tevinter. There have been some hints, I think, that elves are definitely still not "equal" in Tevinter, but not actually quite as totally damned to servitude as in Orlais. I think it's arguably more likely from what we've heard for an elf in Tevinter that is also a powerful mage to rise in social ranks than for any non-human in Orlais. They've made it clear that Tevinter is definitely not entirely a meritocracy based on magical talent, there's a lot of classism and favoritism to noble lineages, but there's also more wiggle room for elves to at least move into the middle class and be considered free if they can use magic very well. What is made clear as a difference is that elves don't have alienages in Tevinter. They're either slaves or free citizens, and it's the same with humans, basically. It does very seem possible for an elven mage to have more power and wealth in Tevinter than a human non-mage from a slave family of non-mages. That's actually an arguably preferable position than for elves in Orlais or most of Thedas we've seen. I think in some ways Tevinter actually poses more challenges balancing non-magic and magic chracters in the story even than races. Tevinter is, no question, ruled by mages. No matter who you are or what, you'll be treated better if you can use magic. I mean, at least in terms of humans/elves vs everything else. I really don't know what the state of Qunari is in Tevinter. I would think not good. But, in general, mages being the rulers of this society definitely offers a new perspective. I think how they balance everything should be interesting to see, at least if they do offer race choices. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they didn't go back to just human, or only human/elf. |
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