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Post by dgcatanisiri on Jan 13, 2018 17:21:12 GMT
The big deal about the whole 'we wanted it to not be a 'Bury Your Gays' thing, we wanted it to have nothing to do with his sexuality'... Honestly, it's really just missing the forest for the trees for me. It's saying that you understand that gays are dying on screen with unpleasant frequency, so you're killing a gay BUT NOT BECAUSE HE'S GAY OR ANYTHING!
It's not that gays are dying in media, so it's important to emphasize that he's not dying because he's gay. What the case ACTUALLY is is that every time that a gay character dies, so too does that representation of a group of people who have been systematically removed and ignored in media for a very long time and are only now seeing any effort to rebalance those scales, and that effort is a slow trickle.
It’s what we discuss all the time about BioWare’s characters. Okay, you’ve got non-heterosexual characters in your franchise. Now what are you doing with them? Because if you’re not having them bring anything new to the table in terms of their story, if you’re saddling them with the same old played out narratives, you’ve done nothing with them except filled a quota. Likewise, here, you’re maybe not telling a story about how a gay man died because he’s gay, but you have still written a story where a gay man dies.
In one swift motion, literally half of the representation that gay men had in Star Trek Discovery was the victim of a brutal act of violence. Whether or not it was done because he was gay or just in the way doesn’t matter, he’s still dead. We are still burying a gay. THAT is the problem. It’s particularly a problem given how Star Trek dragged its heels on even HAVING a gay character – on DS9, Voyager, even Enterprise, a gay character being part of the main cast would have been groundbreaking (Jadzia Dax was close, but her bi/pansexuality was really only brought up for one episode, her other love interests on the show being men). On Discovery, it’s a case of ‘well yeah, and?’ Considering that every major network has or has had at least one show with at least one gay character in the main cast at this point, the fact that Star Trek made a fanfare of this shows how Star Trek has fallen BEHIND the times on this front.
Like I said before, if this were any show that didn’t have the Star Trek name attached to it, this would have been the kind of reveal that made me drop it. Because this is Star Trek, I’m sticking around, but they missed the mark on this one.
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Post by Sir Drell on Jan 13, 2018 17:25:06 GMT
The big deal about the whole 'we wanted it to not be a 'Bury Your Gays' thing, we wanted it to have nothing to do with his sexuality'... Honestly, it's really just missing the forest for the trees for me. It's saying that you understand that gays are dying on screen with unpleasant frequency, so you're killing a gay BUT NOT BECAUSE HE'S GAY OR ANYTHING! It's not that gays are dying in media, so it's important to emphasize that he's not dying because he's gay. What the case ACTUALLY is is that every time that a gay character dies, so too does that representation of a group of people who have been systematically removed and ignored in media for a very long time and are only now seeing any effort to rebalance those scales, and that effort is a slow trickle. It’s what we discuss all the time about BioWare’s characters. Okay, you’ve got non-heterosexual characters in your franchise. Now what are you doing with them? Because if you’re not having them bring anything new to the table in terms of their story, if you’re saddling them with the same old played out narratives, you’ve done nothing with them except filled a quota. Likewise, here, you’re maybe not telling a story about how a gay man died because he’s gay, but you have still written a story where a gay man dies. In one swift motion, literally half of the representation that gay men had in Star Trek Discovery was the victim of a brutal act of violence. Whether or not it was done because he was gay or just in the way doesn’t matter, he’s still dead. We are still burying a gay. THAT is the problem. It’s particularly a problem given how Star Trek dragged its heels on even HAVING a gay character – on DS9, Voyager, even Enterprise, a gay character being part of the main cast would have been groundbreaking (Jadzia Dax was close, but her bi/pansexuality was really only brought up for one episode, her other love interests on the show being men). On Discovery, it’s a case of ‘well yeah, and?’ Considering that every major network has or has had at least one show with at least one gay character in the main cast at this point, the fact that Star Trek made a fanfare of this shows how Star Trek has fallen BEHIND the times on this front. Like I said before, if this were any show that didn’t have the Star Trek name attached to it, this would have been the kind of reveal that made me drop it. Because this is Star Trek, I’m sticking around, but they missed the mark on this one. And about reversing it which they seem to be basically promising at this point, surely that just makes it even more pointless? Why do it in the first place?
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Post by Red Fox on Jan 15, 2018 0:43:38 GMT
New episode shortly. Looking forward to it.
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Post by Red Fox on Jan 15, 2018 1:16:30 GMT
Episode is up.
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Post by Red Fox on Jan 15, 2018 1:51:20 GMT
I am friken loving this alternate universe arc. It's almost like watching a different show. Great stuff. Now to watch the rest of the episode XD
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Post by Red Fox on Jan 15, 2018 2:35:41 GMT
Damn good episode I screamed WHAT when the emperor showed up. Did not expect that at all. The whole thing with Ash was really fucked up. Really can't wait for next week.
#Klingonboobies
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Post by Sir Drell on Jan 15, 2018 13:34:18 GMT
I'm excited about the Voq theory being true but i can't stop thinking about how he and L'Rell did that. Like...how?
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Jan 15, 2018 14:15:09 GMT
I enjoyed that a lot. I totally saw the Emperor reveal coming, although perhaps not quite in that manner. As soon as it was established that she wasn't captain of the Shenzhou in the Terran Empire, and that the Emperor was unknown, she seemed the most obvious person.
What I don't get is how Burnham managed to beam Ash/Voq to where the Discovery could pick him up without the crew of the Shenzhou knowing that it was there. ”Transporter range” definitely used to be a thing...
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Post by Sir Drell on Jan 15, 2018 14:35:26 GMT
I enjoyed that a lot. I totally saw the Emperor reveal coming, although perhaps not quite in that manner. As soon as it was established that she wasn't captain of the Shenzhou in the Terran Empire, and that the Emperor was unknown, she seemed the most obvious person.
What I don't get is how Burnham managed to beam Ash/Voq to where the Discovery could pick him up without the crew of the Shenzhou knowing that it was there. ”Transporter range” definitely used to be a thing...
Yeah i noticed the transporter range problem as well.
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Post by Red Fox on Jan 15, 2018 18:29:08 GMT
I'm excited about the Voq theory being true but i can't stop thinking about how he and L'Rell did that. Like...how? Did the nasty? I thought at first she was forcing him but now I don't know if that scene was after he got his new body or before. If it was after than yea makes sense.
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Post by Sir Drell on Jan 15, 2018 18:54:39 GMT
I'm excited about the Voq theory being true but i can't stop thinking about how he and L'Rell did that. Like...how? Did the nasty? I thought at first she was forcing him but now I don't know if that scene was after he got his new body or before. If it was after than yea makes sense. Hahaha no, banging aliens is awesome and will always make sense to me. The actual surgery + memory/personality installation? Like think about it. Did they find Ash, kill him and use his body? Then how did they get his memories and personality in Voq if he was dead, and how would you even do that in the first place? I would like an explanation at one point because the quick flashbacks don't help too much. Star Trek does like to explain its technology to us right? I'm just curious really.
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Post by Red Fox on Jan 15, 2018 19:33:56 GMT
Did the nasty? I thought at first she was forcing him but now I don't know if that scene was after he got his new body or before. If it was after than yea makes sense. Hahaha no, banging aliens is awesome and will always make sense to me. The actual surgery + memory/personality installation? Like think about it. Did they find Ash, kill him and use his body? Then how did they get his memories and personality in Voq if he was dead, and how would you even do that in the first place? I would like an explanation at one point because the quick flashbacks don't help too much. Star Trek does like to explain its technology to us right? I'm just curious really. Space magic is how they did it lol. Get Out had something similar but both were alive so I dunno.
Also 100% agreed that banging aliens is awesome haha. *wonders if pelvis would break when having sex with klingons*
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Jan 15, 2018 20:46:03 GMT
Did the nasty? I thought at first she was forcing him but now I don't know if that scene was after he got his new body or before. If it was after than yea makes sense. Hahaha no, banging aliens is awesome and will always make sense to me. The actual surgery + memory/personality installation? Like think about it. Did they find Ash, kill him and use his body? Then how did they get his memories and personality in Voq if he was dead, and how would you even do that in the first place? I would like an explanation at one point because the quick flashbacks don't help too much. Star Trek does like to explain its technology to us right? I'm just curious really. As I understand it, they surgically altered Voq to look like Ash, hence all the scar tissue and reduced bones. They then placed the real Ash's personality on top of Voq's. The verse that L'Rell made him chant was supposed to unlock the real Voq, but it failed to work properly because Ash was in love with Michael. The two personalities were struggling with each other until they met the mirror Voq, which triggered Voq to take over completely.
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Post by dgcatanisiri on Jan 15, 2018 21:05:34 GMT
Hahaha no, banging aliens is awesome and will always make sense to me. The actual surgery + memory/personality installation? Like think about it. Did they find Ash, kill him and use his body? Then how did they get his memories and personality in Voq if he was dead, and how would you even do that in the first place? I would like an explanation at one point because the quick flashbacks don't help too much. Star Trek does like to explain its technology to us right? I'm just curious really. As I understand it, they surgically altered Voq to look like Ash, hence all the scar tissue and reduced bones. They then placed the real Ash's personality on top of Voq's. The verse that L'Rell made him chant was supposed to unlock the real Voq, but it failed to work properly because Ash was in love with Michael. The two personalities were struggling with each other until they met the mirror Voq, which triggered Voq to take over completely.
Part of my impression is that there is/was a real Ash Tyler who had been captured by the Klingons, and that all of this was done to him - the implanting of Voq's personality, the trigger phrase, all of that - while the real Ash was still alive. Probably killing him would render the whole 'implanting a sleeper personality' thing moot, since the surface personality would be dead.
And yeah, Emperor Georgiou was my guess from the start as well - not just because the writers had mentioned something about how they were going to bring back Michelle Yeoh, but also just... I mean, how better to twist the knife in Michael, having her Starfleet mentor be the ultimate evil she has to face among the Terran Empire?
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Jan 15, 2018 22:51:48 GMT
As I understand it, they surgically altered Voq to look like Ash, hence all the scar tissue and reduced bones. They then placed the real Ash's personality on top of Voq's. The verse that L'Rell made him chant was supposed to unlock the real Voq, but it failed to work properly because Ash was in love with Michael. The two personalities were struggling with each other until they met the mirror Voq, which triggered Voq to take over completely.
Part of my impression is that there is/was a real Ash Tyler who had been captured by the Klingons, and that all of this was done to him - the implanting of Voq's personality, the trigger phrase, all of that - while the real Ash was still alive. Probably killing him would render the whole 'implanting a sleeper personality' thing moot, since the surface personality would be dead.
And yeah, Emperor Georgiou was my guess from the start as well - not just because the writers had mentioned something about how they were going to bring back Michelle Yeoh, but also just... I mean, how better to twist the knife in Michael, having her Starfleet mentor be the ultimate evil she has to face among the Terran Empire? I think the real Ash was alive at the start of the procedure, but only until the personality (and possibly also internal organs) was implanted into Voq.
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Post by dgcatanisiri on Jan 16, 2018 0:21:48 GMT
Part of my impression is that there is/was a real Ash Tyler who had been captured by the Klingons, and that all of this was done to him - the implanting of Voq's personality, the trigger phrase, all of that - while the real Ash was still alive. Probably killing him would render the whole 'implanting a sleeper personality' thing moot, since the surface personality would be dead.
And yeah, Emperor Georgiou was my guess from the start as well - not just because the writers had mentioned something about how they were going to bring back Michelle Yeoh, but also just... I mean, how better to twist the knife in Michael, having her Starfleet mentor be the ultimate evil she has to face among the Terran Empire? I think the real Ash was alive at the start of the procedure, but only until the personality (and possibly also internal organs) was implanted into Voq. I think he had to still be alive through the process, and even into the time that Voq has taken over, even now - for Tyler's story to last as long as it did, for the implantation to work as it has, I just can't see Tyler as being a completely dead man. That the plan actually hinged on Tyler repressing the implantation trauma to allow Voq to hide under that layer until he was awakened. And, in rather typical Klingon arrogance, the assumption was that Tyler's personality would be too weak to resist Voq taking the reins at that point. I get the impression - particularly with the penultimate episode being titled 'The War Without, The War Within,' then pairing that with the finale having a title of 'Will You Take My Hand?' which sounds very much like a title that's a line from the episode, so very likely Burnham to Voq/Tyler - that while Voq has control now, we're still going to see more of Ash Tyler. So I can't help but see Tyler as still being alive, even if it's not in the traditional sense. He is one of two personalities that will war for dominance as the next few episodes play out.
Because duality does seem to be the theme of this arc. The mirror universe particularly, but even with Michael's own character from the get go, seeing her balance between the two sides of her upbringing, her human nature and her Vulcan raising, how she balances the two sides of herself. It'd be thematic to put up Michael's duality against the duality of the two people in Tyler's head.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 14:48:20 GMT
Not sure if this will be useful to anyone. Amazon has apparently partnered with CBS to have ST:DIS on Amazon, but you still need an All Access subscription, which I think you might be able to buy through them? I'm not sure how it works. When I initially learned about it I was excited for about 10 seconds before understanding.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:12:52 GMT
And ofc gays are the only ones who are dead/badly injured, I'm surprised? Nnnooooooppeee.. Overall cool show, nothing too fancy, some nonsense here and there, but hey, which shows does not have some?
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Post by Red Fox on Jan 17, 2018 15:14:19 GMT
And ofc gays are the only ones who are dead/badly injured, I'm surprised? Nnnooooooppeee.. Overall cool show, nothing too fancy, some nonsense here and there, but hey, which shows does not have some? It is becoming an important plot point. I think we are gonna have a search for spock situation coming.
Also I think what has happened to Ash is far worse than any other character on the show.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 18:06:01 GMT
And ofc gays are the only ones who are dead/badly injured, I'm surprised? Nnnooooooppeee.. Overall cool show, nothing too fancy, some nonsense here and there, but hey, which shows does not have some? It is becoming an important plot point. I think we are gonna have a search for spock situation coming.
Also I think what has happened to Ash is far worse than any other character on the show. I do not agree, death is death, at least Ash is alive and there is still hope for him (I mean his true human form, who knows everything is possible in this show) and also what happens with Paul is similar to Ash, plus his lover is dead So yeah but no..
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